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D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

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pemerton

Legend
D&D is a business. It's a corporate endeavor. The people who make the content are employees creating corporate mandates products. It's not art.

<snip>

It matters to people. Why? Because they LIKE the canon and continuity. Because they don't like it when it is changed.
What more reason does their need to be?

<snip>

the game has a history - a legacy - that is worthy of being respected.

<snip>

Just like comic book writers and movie franchise creators are bound by continuity, so are the writers of D&D material.
If it's not art - if it's a mere commercial production - then why does it merit respect? Why does it need "curation"?

Those sound like attitudes that make the most sense when directed towards something that exhibits/possesses aesthetic value - ie a piece of art.

My first instinct as a writer and a storyteller and a worldbuilder is "Here are these two disparate elements that don't fit. How can I make them fit? How can I make this work?"
I don't think "what can I change?" I think "what can I add?" I look at bugbears and ask myself why? There's a *story* there. I think of a reason goblins and bugbears are connected.

Changing is what I do when I give up. When I can't think of an interesting way to connect goblins and bugbears.
This tells us something about you. But it doesn't necessarily tell us about what is good in RPG publishing, or in the commercialisation of story elements by a RPG publisher.

For instance, if a RPG publisher has identified that some particular aspect of the game as published to date is an obstacle to, rather than a facilitator of, the play of their game (eg as WotC did with race/class limits), then that creates a reason for change. Which in that particular case also produces significant changes to lore, as all these dwarf wizards, gnome bards etc start popping up where hitherto they were absent.

In Gygax's MM orcs hated elves above all other races. (As per LotR.) [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION], though, called out an orcish hatred of dwarves as canonical: maybe he was influenced by 2nd ed, which says that orcs "have a historic enmity against elves and dwarves; many tribes will kill these demihumans on sight." (But preserves the older hobgoblin law, that they "hate elves and always attack them first.") That's a change, made presumably to differentiate orcs from hobgoblins and/or support a wider range of dramatic encounters involving orcs and/or to reduce the likelihood that playing an elf will mean that all the GM's monsters pick on you.

I've never heard anyone complain about that change. I don't think making that change violated any important principle of writing story material for RPGs, or even any of the more specific principles that govern writing Monster Manuals for D&D.

1) You don't like canon and continuity. That's fine. But why does your dislike (or just apathy) matter more than our like? Why does our discomfort matter less than your neutrality?
I don't dislike canon. It doesn't bother me. Nor does it have much inherent appeal to me. What I like is compelling story elements - where by "compelling" I mean "something I want to use in my own RPGing".

To offer an example: the Yawning Portal announcement thread prompted me to go back and re-read my copy of Castle Amber, which I last ran around 16 years ago but never finished. I've started making notes in anticipation of perhaps getting a chance to run it again - and in the course of doing that am taking out all the reference to Glantri, which seem like a distraction to me and dilute the Amber family's connection to Averoigne. Castle Amber I find rather compelling, despite its evident absurdities; Glantri, on the other hand, not at all, and especially not as a component of Castle Amber.

Can you name one product that was worse for continuity? That was bad because the authors couldn't make changes. Because their creativity was limited.
I'll name a few:

*The original MotP: the incorporation of all the gods in DDG, plus all the creatures in the MMs, makes the Outer Planes inane rather than compelling. Nirvana, in particular - later Mechanus - becomes just silly as a home for Shang-Ti. Likewise the "earthbergs" of Gladsheim as homes for the Norse gods (especially the idea that Muspelheim is an upside-down earthberg).

*GH products that take seriously the idea that the Scarlet Brotherhood are Suel renegades are another. That just dilutes and distracts from the inherent interest of the Scarlet Brotherhood as a hierarchy of thieves, assassins and monks under the Father of Obedience, by requiring that stuff to be tied into ancient Suel culture. It dilutes the secret martial arts plateau trope, and it makes the ancient empire trope carried by the Suel pick up stupid backage. All the Suel and the Scarlet Brotherhood have going for them is that they are workings out of these pulp tropes, so once you dilute them you just get less compelling stuff.

*The inclusion of a cult of Chauntea in module OA7 - which introduces needless and distracting FR-isms into an otherwise very good module that, more than any other OA module except perhaps OA3, actually makes tropes around the Celestial Bureaucracy, immortality, peachling children, etc central to play.

Look, this thread is 163 pages of people mostly trying to explain to you why canon is important to them. At some point you just need to accept that it is a concept you don't understand.
I think you're misunderstanding me, or underestimating me, or both.

I can read the posts. I can draw inferences from what is said. I'm inviting posters, though, to actually articulate the value that is moving them to care about canon. [MENTION=94143]Shasarak[/MENTION] has done this not too far upthread. But some other posters seem to shy away from it: eg they feel like they need to advance instrumental reasons (eg "players will get confused if canon changes") when it seems transparently clear that their concern is not instrumental; or they try and defend blanket claims about the importance of adherence to canon, yet in doing so put forward examples where canon has changed rather markedly (eg what, if anything, differentiates D&D orcs from JRRT's, or D&D orcs from D&D hobgoblins).

I think some notion of "integrity of a body of work" is probably in the right neighbourhood for a number of posters other than just [MENTION=94143]Shasarak[/MENTION], but the criteria by which integrity is judged could probably bear more elaboration. For instance, what sorts of trade-offs between thematic integrity and "factual" integrity are permissible (eg can we get rid of earthbergs to get something that is more fitting to the themes of Norse mythology - ie foster thematic integrity - even though that means reworking our descriptions of Gladsheim - ie sacrificing "factual" integrity).
 

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pemerton

Legend
I submit that until I know a thing, it doesn't exist. Once I know it, it has changed from not existing to becoming the thing I know. My understanding didn't change. The thing did.
I'm not sure this is true for the real world. (Though some people have held that it is.)

But something like it is true for a fictional world. Until we're told the exact length and pattern of the socks that Holmes was wearing the day that he first met Watson, then within the fiction there simply is no fact of the matter.

Which is not to say that when Watson looked at Holmes's ankles he didn't see anything. Rather, it's to say that there is no fact of the matter as to what it was that Watson saw. An act of authorship is required to establish this.
 

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
I think some notion of "integrity of a body of work" is probably in the right neighbourhood for a number of posters other than just [MENTION=94143]Shasarak[/MENTION], but the criteria by which integrity is judged could probably bear more elaboration. For instance, what sorts of trade-offs between thematic integrity and "factual" integrity are permissible (eg can we get rid of earthbergs to get something that is more fitting to the themes of Norse mythology - ie foster thematic integrity - even though that means reworking our descriptions of Gladsheim - ie sacrificing "factual" integrity).
I gotta agree with this point

Upthread someone brought up the point about giants being changed in 4E. The question I ask is... Why weren't they changed early? The Ordning really doesn't make sense when you think about it. I mean at its heart its a bunch of exceedingly different creatures who listen to other ones, who don't even live in their environment, enjoy the same things they do, and are completely foreign to their culture, because, uh, something something ancient culture. Which, let's be honest, probably collapsed because the giants trying to run the thing finally gave up trying to organise hill giants into something approximating "Useful", and grew tired of the fire giants and frost giants constantly arguing about if things should be warmer or colder

Giants having a more mythical reason for their elemental nature made a lot more sense, rather than Gygaxian "The lower HD ones listen to the higher HD ones despite their cultural differences and the fact they each want completely different things" it used to be. And that's a good change as far as I care. I mean, I guess you can't have something where a frost giant is ordered around by a fire giant, but honestly, did that ever really make sense?
 

pemerton

Legend
The Ordning really doesn't make sense when you think about it. I mean at its heart its a bunch of exceedingly different creatures who listen to other ones, who don't even live in their environment, enjoy the same things they do, and are completely foreign to their culture, because, uh, something something ancient culture.

<snip>

Gygaxian "The lower HD ones listen to the higher HD ones despite their cultural differences and the fact they each want completely different things"
I don't know that Gygax can be blamed for the Ordning. In G1-G3, the giants are working in a hierarchy under the coordination of the drow, not as part of a more general giant social structure.

Which, let's be honest, probably collapsed because the giants trying to run the thing finally gave up trying to organise hill giants into something approximating "Useful", and grew tired of the fire giants and frost giants constantly arguing about if things should be warmer or colder
I gave you XP but could have given laugh instead for this!
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
[MENTION=205]
Do Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones even have trolls? That are especially vulnerable to fire? For that matter, do they have 6d6 fireballs? I would assume that 7th Sea doesn't.

I doesn't really matter if they have trolls. The same effect happens if the passerby hears, "I cast a fireball on the humans for 6d6.".
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
I doesn't really matter if they have trolls. The same effect happens if the passerby hears, "I cast a fireball on the humans for 6d6.".
Something that isn't going to happen in Wheel of Time (while doing fire damage for 6d6 is possible, there's no fireball weave), Game of Thrones (no overt magic there) and 7th Sea (why would anyone run the d20 version over 2nd edition, which is much better, and doesn't use d6s for damage).
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Something that isn't going to happen in Wheel of Time (while doing fire damage for 6d6 is possible, there's no fireball weave), Game of Thrones (no overt magic there) and 7th Sea (why would anyone run the d20 version over 2nd edition, which is much better, and doesn't use d6s for damage).
Not in the book, but in the novels Rand threw fireballs. In any case, the passerby could overhear, "I power attack the bandit and if I kill it, cleave into his companion." The point is that the d20 rules don't determine which game is being played. The lore does that.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Not in the book, but in the novels Rand threw fireballs. In any case, the passerby could overhear, "I power attack the bandit and if I kill it, cleave into his companion." The point is that the d20 rules don't determine which game is being played. The lore does that.

I can't say I agree with that. If I port Forgotten Realms over to the Savage Worlds system, I wouldn't say I'm playing D&D.

What I think we're trying to get at here is:
(D&D mechanics) x (not D&D setting) = Not D&D.
(not D&D mechanics) x (D&D setting) = Not D&D.
(D&D mechanics) x (D&D setting) = D&D.

I think that ties into my (and others) earlier point that while it's hard to specify what IS "D&D", it's pretty easy to identify what it "not D&D".
 

pemerton

Legend
I doesn't really matter if they have trolls. The same effect happens if the passerby hears, "I cast a fireball on the humans for 6d6."
In any case, the passerby could overhear, "I power attack the bandit and if I kill it, cleave into his companion."
You don't refute my point by putting forward a different, more generic example!

I mean, from hearing someone say "Let's go get the orcs!" you can't tell what system they're playing either - but that's why I didn't choose that as my example!

Following [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION]'s lead, I pointed to particular D&D idioms - fireball with d6s of damage, trolls that are vulnerable to fire, d20 to attack followed by a damage die, etc - as markers of the resemblance between D&D and (say) PF or 13th Age.

The point is that the d20 rules don't determine which game is being played. The lore does that.
And yet I have played D&D games with completely different lore (eg GH vs OA)!

Between the barest of rules, and the richest of lore, there is what [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] has called the "gestalt" or what I've called the "idiom". It's a real thing, and D&D and PF have it in common; whereas BW, RQ, RM, T&T, DQ, and the other games I've mentioned all set out to repduiate it in some fashion or other.

I mean, what do you think Paizo were referring to when they put out a big poster for Pathfinder with the words "3.5 Thrives"?
 

[MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] already replied to this. If you're suggesting that PF or 13th Age has nothing more in common with D&D than Harry Potter does with LotR (or, by implication, that PF has nothing more in common with D&D than Runequest does), then I think that's just silly.

Likewise DC and Marvel. They're both superhero comic franchises. PF and D&D aren't just two FRPGs. PF is an express derivative of D&D (it's right there in the clause 15 OGL declaration!). It uses the same mechanical structures for PC building, monster building, action resolution and encounter framing. And many of the individual elements (classes, class abilities including especially feats and spells, monsters, etc) are identical or nearly so.
Marvel comic's superheroes owe as much to DC and Superman as PF owes to D&D. Superman and then Batman established the tropes as much as D&D established the rule framework. Many characters are interchangeable.
They use the same structures for storytelling as all comic books. They used identical looking text bubbles and simmilar font. Their art style was very simmilar in the past. If you took an unlettered page of the characters in civilian clothes, you'd be unable to tell a Marvel comic from a DC comic.
They're far more simmilar than D&D and Pathfinder.

If you tore the cover of a RQ book and showed it to a D&D player, they would never mistake it for a D&D supplement. But any player of 3E D&D could look at a PF book and take it to be a supplement for the game they're familiar with.
At the start, yes. Now, six years later, there's a lot of Pathfinder-isms. Changes to presentation and formatting. New races and classes.

Pathfinder is also Golarion and it's world as much as its rules. It's the monsters (and their presentation), hellknights, the iconic characters, world iconography and the like. If you show soneone a picture of a Pathfinder cover (without text) and a D&D cover, you can tell the difference.
It's canon.
 

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