D&D 5E Let's Talk About Yawning Portal

[JonnyP71]

In 1E the Demi Lich was immune to the vast majority of attacks - and it's the half-hearted 5E approach to those immunities that is one major problem.

Would this work:
- Immune to normal weapons
- Special resistance to magical weapons - these inflict damage equal to the Plus of the weapon. Immunity to all secondary effects of weapons APART from those that cause radiant damage.
- Add resistance to fire and cold
- Immune to criticals

Legendary Action:
- Remove the Save from the Energy Drain

- Remove the Save from the Trap Soul

The basic premise was in 1E that if you disturbed the rest of a Demi Lich and did not have a very clever plan of action you were dead. Acererak was not just another monster there to be killed, this was his lair, and everything would be on his terms. There were ways to kill him, but roll initiative, whack whack whack was not one of those ways.

 

[Reynard]

In 1E the Demi Lich was immune to the vast majority of attacks - and it's the half-hearted 5E approach to those immunities that is one major problem.

Would this work:
- Immune to normal weapons
- Special resistance to magical weapons - these inflict damage equal to the Plus of the weapon. Immunity to all secondary effects of weapons APART from those that cause radiant damage.
- Add resistance to fire and cold
- Immune to criticals

Legendary Action:
- Remove the Save from the Energy Drain

- Remove the Save from the Trap Soul

The basic premise was in 1E that if you disturbed the rest of a Demi Lich and did not have a very clever plan of action you were dead. Acererak was not just another monster there to be killed, this was his lair, and everything would be on his terms. There were ways to kill him, but roll initiative, whack whack whack was not one of those ways.

These are some good ideas, and there have been others, but it doesn't really change the fact that the TotYP "Tombs of Horrors" is more of a "Tomb of Mild Annoyances."

I am going to read White Plume Mountain later and see if it is any better.

 

[jimmytheccomic]

I think the biggest issue with Tomb of Horrors is, other than the few "instant death" traps (which need to be triggered through stupidity, or an absurdly low initiative roll after something is triggered), it's quite difficult to die! All of the combat encounters are quite easy for the recommended level (they even go out of their way to gimp the Mummy Lord, taking away his legendary actions and spells?!?), and the "Death saving throw" system, combined with no reason to not spam short rests, makes it nearly impossible to die from a conventional trap.


I'm running it next week for a table expecting, and somewhat looking forward to, a massacre, so I'm making these alterations:

-First of all, the Mummy Lord is a conventional Mummy Lord, it's so odd that they gimped him.

-In the Tomb, if you hit 0 hit points, you die, full stop.

-No short or long rests in the Tomb (And I am considering the door sealing behind them, so they can't leave.)

For right now, I'm leaning towards leaving the Demilich as is- the various immunities and flight will make him tough, and I'm expecting them to not have a full party by that point. But we'll see- I'll gauge that based on how the first session goes.

(EDIT- I'm also considering bumping all of the DCs for saving throws, intelligence checks, notice checks, etc. up by 5, as they all seem fairly trivial for a higher level party- my table is making 13th level characters for this dungeon.)

 

[Caliburn101]

We all know the CR rules are borked above 6th level, so rather than change the Tomb of Horrors, merely have the party go in at lower level. 4 levels lower and the place will chew the witless up just fine.

 

[Reynard]

We all know the CR rules are borked above 6th level, so rather than change the Tomb of Horrors, merely have the party go in at lower level. 4 levels lower and the place will chew the witless up just fine.

I think I might try it with no modifications and 9th level characters as a test.

 

[CapnZapp]

We all know the CR rules are borked above 6th level

The problem is much more severe than that.

This just goes to show that the Out of the Abyss challenge level wasn't just an unfortunate but isolated accident. (We speculated it was written while the rules were still in playtest)

But the bitter truth is that WotC is serving us pre-chewed food on purpose, but pretend as if they aren't.

Mearls can say "it's deadly" since he knows nobody can hold him to that promise. After all, at least one character will die in the Tomb. Or actually, not even that.

"One character could die" and "the party risks defeat" is all that's required for an encounter to be called "deadly" in this new-speak.

---

My point is that I no longer believe the writers are simply too naive and inept to realize the power projected by a group of reasonably attentive players.

Instead the only conclusion I can draw is that WotC have deliberately decided not a single player should experience having their high-level character die, and so every single encounter is mandated to be utterly trivial child's play.

 

[zaratan]

These are some good ideas, and there have been others, but it doesn't really change the fact that the TotYP "Tombs of Horrors" is more of a "Tomb of Mild Annoyances."

I am going to read White Plume Mountain later and see if it is any better.

"Tomb of look, I broke my nail"

I didn't read all White Plume Mountain, but at least look a challange for 4 lvl 8 characters following DMG recommendation. They even suggest at the end to send up to 4 efreeti at the end if things are easy. Ok, party will have 3 legendary itens at that point, but still is 57600xp encounter, for 5 lvl 9 players is 4.8x the deadly encounter suggestion.

By the way, I'm loving White Plume Mountain. I'm new to D&D, started in 4e (many guys hate it, but the encounter problem wasn't one of the weakness), and WPM is the type of adventure I'm looking for in the moment: short, lots of puzzle, traps and terrain features for combat encounter.
Do you veterans know other olds adventures like that? I got a reference for Crypt of Lyzandred the Mad in another topic, that looks easily to adapt even I'm don't knowing 2e rules. The Well of Demons in Thunderspire Labirinth was a nice dungeon too, from 4e.

Don't know if I start at level 5 with my group in the hidden shrine of tamoachan, find another adventure, or skip directly to white plume mountain.

 

[Prakriti]

-In the Tomb, if you hit 0 hit points, you die, full stop.

This might be the only way to get the authentic classic D&D feel.

Also, use classic rest rules:
- Short rests and "spending hie die" don't exist. They're gone.
- Long rests (8 hours of sleep) recover 1 HP.

That way, even those setback traps have real consequences.

I'm considering doing this for Sunless Citadel as well.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This might be the only way to get the authentic classic D&D feel.

Also, use classic rest rules:
- Short rests and "spending hie die" don't exist. They're gone.
- Long rests (8 hours of sleep) recover 1 HP.

That way, even those setback traps have real consequences.

I'm considering doing this for Sunless Citadel as well.

You know, that's not a bad house rule for an entire campaign. I like it much, much better than any of the DMG rest variants like tweaking the length of long rests.

It does have some odd interactions with Second Wind but I could probably live with that, without having to modify Second Wind.

 

[Reynard]

You know, that's not a bad house rule for an entire campaign. I like it much, much better than any of the DMG rest variants like tweaking the length of long rests.

It does have some odd interactions with Second Wind but I could probably live with that, without having to modify Second Wind.

It would wreck havoc with certain class abilities since many of them recover on short rests. Besides, eliminating hit die healing means the cleric is back to using all of his spells on healing. I don't think it is the right solution to the problem at hand.