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Judgement calls vs "railroading"

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But, as best I can tell, at [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s table the GM makes all those decisions - is there a sage? are there northern barbarians? does the former know anything of the latter? etc.

This is all part of the GM's behind-the-scenes worldbuilding.

No all of it. It's not possible for a DM to detail out every last NPC in the world. There will be sages and others that are not detailed, but which the PCs could decide to go look for.

Which means that the player action declaration "We look for a sage to try and learn about such-and-such" is, in effect, a request from the players to the GM for the GM to dispense some of that backstory.

Or to come up with the sage that is pretty much guaranteed to exist. It's exceedingly unlikely that there wouldn't be many people in the world who are highly knowledgeable. They will go look for one, even if the DM didn't think to pre-author it.

It's not a substantive input from the players into the shared fiction.
In your opinion. In my opinion it is.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Out of curiousity, did the fact that the player had the ability to cast falconskin increase the odds of success on their check(s) to escape?
No, because there was no setting of "a chance to escape". The PC is put into prison. The door is not one a falcon can fly (or squeeze) through. So the PC instead waits to see if his cleric friend, whom he thinks is the sort of person who would go into the prisons trying to help the suffering, turns up: mechanically, the player declares a Circles test (with a bonus, because the existence of this friend has already been established in a prior episode of play).

The check fails, so instead the only person to turn up is the magistrate, who decides to let the prisoners rot there indefinitely (the ingame logic of this I spelled out upthread; the resolution logic is that the player has made his roll to see if people turning up will help his PC escape, and has failed, and so now either (i) some other means will be required (he worked on the assassin who was also in the cell), or (ii) he can wait and see what I do as GM (but my player tends not to like waiting to see what I will do as GM, because he tends to suspect - rightly, most of the time - that it won't be good for his PC!).

it sounds like the player's ability--which should be excellent for escaping prisons--was instead rendered entirely useless in that circumstance.
I'm not sure why being able to turn into a falcon is excellent for escaping prisons per se - it depends a bit on the prisons' construciton, doesn't it (eg Gandalf atop Orthanc vs being thrown into a dungeon)?

When the GM negates player build choices (selecting the ability to cast falconskin) and/or PC actions (wanting to cast falconskin to escape) to achieve a particular result (inability to escape the prison), I consider that the very essence of railroading.

<snip>

"thwarting player intent" is railroading when it's dictated by the dice just as much as when it's dictated by the GM's plans for the story.
No action was negated. Nor was any build choice. The player didn't declare "I change into a falcon and escape!" - he asked "Does the prison have bars I can squeeze through?" and I answered "No." It's a moment of framing, not of action resolution - and the framing is the direct consequence of a series of failed checks (to get through the city; to persuade the guards to help with the bodies rather than treat them as cause for suspicion).

If the player had declared, in the encounter with the guards, "I change into a falcon and fly away!" this would almost certainly have succeeded. But he didn't do that, in part because he didn't want to lose track of the bodies he was carrying . . .

If a fighter's hit points have been reduced to zero by application of the action resolution mechanics, it's not railroading to deny the player of that character the opportunity to declare attacks. Mutatis mutandis in this case.

you still made the prison falcon-proof explicitly to negate the PC's ability. If I were the player, I would absolutely feel railroaded in that situation.
It seems to me there are three options.

(1) Prisons that are narrated always have bars, small gaps, etc such that shapechanging PCs can escape them (ie can never be held in prison).

(2) Prisons that are narrated never have bars, small gaps, etc.

(3) Prisons that are narrated sometimes have bars, small gaps, etc; and sometimes not. Given that my setting is a trad fantasy one where timber is more prevalent than worked metal, (3) seems the most logical.

Then, within 3, there is the question - how do we decide which prisons are which? We might roll % dice. BW has a mechanic for that (called the "die of fate") but it is not a major part of the system, because it only comes into play when other considerations that would inform framing and resolution are exhausted.

Another way to decide would be via action declaration and resolution: the player could have tried to roll an Architecture or similar check to discover the gap his falcon-form can fly through. But he chose not to - presumably because he suspected he wouldn't succeed at that.

Given that a DoF was not appropriate, and that the player didn't declare any action relevant to the construction of the prison, my framing stands. It's a consequence of failure; hence, you didn't get what you wanted (ie you're not getting where you wanted to get with your bodies); hence you can't just fly out in falcon form and negate the failure. You're going to actually have to deal with the failure. (Which he did: he created an illusion of himself and the other prisoner; turned the two of them invisible; and then the assassin tried to pick the lock, taking the time to make the attempt with care. Unfortunately that check failed, and so - per the rules of the game - I am entited to impose a major time-based complication (due to the taking of the bonus for a careful attempt). That was the cliffhanger on which we finished our short session last Sunday.)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
But, as best I can tell, at [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s table the GM makes all those decisions - is there a sage? are there northern barbarians? does the former know anything of the latter? etc.

This is all part of the GM's behind-the-scenes worldbuilding.

Which means that the player action declaration "We look for a sage to try and learn about such-and-such" is, in effect, a request from the players to the GM for the GM to dispense some of that backstory. It's not a substantive input from the players into the shared fiction.
I completely fail to understand how else it can work, unless the players are in fact co-authoring (or completely authoring) the game world and its content and thus not only doing the DM's job but doing themselves a great disservice: what's the fun of exploration when you already know what's there.

And note that I as DM am not playing in order to explore my own world: I already know what's there, or certainly should. Instead I'm providing a game world for the players (via their characters) to explore and learn about.

Lanefan said:
If the party have done their diligence and found 4 or 5 different possibilities for adventure and then decide as a party to ignore them all and instead go north to take over the barbarian tribes then - unless I in fact do want to railroad them for some reason - I'm DMing an attempted takeover of the barbarian tribes. And this might be all complete speculation on the players'/PCs' part - "Hey, lets go see if there's any barbarian tribes we can take over - we can make 'em into our own private army!" - without any actual knowledge of whether such tribes exist or if they do what they might have going for them.

I've bolded the bit that makes it clear that the GM is the author of the gameworld, while the players learn what it is that the GM has authored.[/QUOTE]Again, how else can it possibly work?

You want the players to be able to drive the fiction...which in this case is exactly they're doing by their left-turn north to seek barbarian tribes to take over. If I'm the DM I have to respond to this. I can either narrate whatever they learn about the barbarians and then DM their journey north; or I can narrate they fail to learn anything and DM whatever they do next which might include a journey north anyway; or I can railroad them somehow into staying in the south.

Look at it another way. When the idea of going to the barbarians suddenly emerges from nowhere - and that's the case here; this idea of going after the barbarians comes right out of the blue - 4 possible results can occur:

1. The barbarians exist, and the DM has known this all along
2. The barbarians exist, but the DM just now decided that on the fly
3. The barbarians do not exist, and the DM has known this all along
4. The barbarians do not exist, but the DM just now decided that on the fly

Or, to clarify, are you disagreeing that designing the game world and its content is the DM's responsibility? If yes, then how in your eyes does the game world get designed? (I can't imagine trying to run a game in a setting that hasn't got at least some pre-design to it even if it's only a town, a dungeon or other adventure, occupants of both, and some geographical features around and between the town and dungeon) Who decides where the cities are? Where the dragons are? Where the next dungeon is after this one, and what it consists of? Who rules the realm, if anyone, and what the ruling or political structure is?

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] (and anyone else who uses a PC-goals oriented system), a question or two; with an assist from a fellow DM here (we got talking about all this earlier tonight):

If I understand it right, in your game before play starts each player comes up with some goals for her character, and once play starts the DM is somewhat bound to have those goals and their resolution be the central theme of what gets played - am I right so far?

So, first: do the players (out of character) always know what everyone else's goals are even if in-character they are for some reason hidden?

Second: what "scale" are these goals expected to be on? Swearing vengeance on the lizardmen who overran your family farm sounds all very noble but by 3rd level it could be done and dried (not much of a campaign there), so are the goals expected to be longer-term sorts of thing?

Third: what if two (or more) characters' goals directly conflict? Let's say as an over-the-top example that this time out your players really want to dig into political/rulership stuff for some reason. Both Jacasta (fighter) and Moliere (rogue) have as their main character goal "to overthrow the ruling council of Thrace and replace it with myself as supreme high ruler with no equal". I can see them maybe sort of working together to chuck out the council but what then? Neither will accept an equal so they can't co-rule and still achieve their goals...so do they get to plot (or even throw down) against each other at that point?

Throw another log on the fire: in the same party let's say (cleric) Fieriatta's main goal is to become respected enough to be worthy of taking her mother's place on the Thraci council - she completely supports the council structure etc. as is - meanwhile (wizard) Calliandre's goal is to remove the council completely and turn Thrace into - in effect - a communist free state without any recognized rulership or heirarchy at all.

In my system I can - if I like - choose to run with this, or just use some of it, or most likely just ignore it all and hope it goes away. But in your system, if what you've posted holds true, you're in theory stuck with trying to DM it as you're forced by the system to hew close to their stated goals...

Lan-"most of the time my main character goal is just to survive long enough to worry about any other goals"-efan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
(Which he did: he created an illusion of himself and the other prisoner; turned the two of them invisible; and then the assassin tried to pick the lock, taking the time to make the attempt with care. Unfortunately that check failed, and so - per the rules of the game - I am entited to impose a major time-based complication (due to the taking of the bonus for a careful attempt). That was the cliffhanger on which we finished our short session last Sunday.)
Side note: pretty useless prison guards if they a) didn't spell-tie the prisoners' fingers to prevent casting and-or b) foolishly let them keep their spell components and thieves' tools with them in the cell.

Lanefan
 

Nagol

Unimportant
I'm always somewhat hesitant to dig into armchair analysis of such play examples, especially for improv-based games, because the analysts are able to pick at nits while missing out on the emotional table-state and known player qualities and not suffering the time and performance pressures. But here we go.

Good. This is exactly the kind of stuff I wanted to talk about.

So here are my thoughts on the above situation. First, the

Fiction:

1) Starving, old, deaf sheepdog that has been living in a state of trapped terror for who knows how long.

2) What would a creature like this want? Food, companionship, safety.

3) The Ranger knows animal posture/behavior, entreats the dog with an appropriate show of lack of aggression/sincerity, offers food.

4) That is very powerful leverage in this situation.

Absolutely! and the best way to mechanically address this leverage would be through a bonus to the roll! Oh wait, that's the wrong type of rule mechanics for this game. Although not forbidden, such probability adjustments are discouraged. Follow the story where the dice go and if the situation is trivial, don't bother with a roll is closer to its credo.

So based on your description I would expect no roll would be necessary to appropriately persuade the dog to take the food. If a roll is called for, then obviously there are other factors at play which will be revealed on a 9-. Like the fact the dog isn't a dog, isn't in the condition presented, isn't alone, will attack regardless, or perhaps the dog will flee to its death rather than deal with a human.

Mechanics:

1) Unlike Fate, Cortex+, 4e, DW (and most PbtA conflict resolution) doesn't have formal closure to every scene trope (save for where clocks and things like HP are involved). So here we're just left to follow the game's Agenda and Principles rather than closing out a scene. A few moves will pin you down tightly on a 6- (this thing happens). Most, Parley included, leave it open for the players (through their action/inaction), the fiction, and GM fidelity to Agenda/Principles will tell us when we're done. It certainly isn't a system that mandates for binary responses to moves; a or b are the only permissible outcomes for success failure. In fact, it expects the opposite.

And this is my primary complaint with the system. It places undue reliance on the GM to adhere to the game's principles and provides few checks the players can use to detect or correct for variance. A GM can trivally insert soft moves and moves coloured with his own expectations to guide players around by the nose with similar effect to an outcome-based game like D&D's DM using illusionism and fudging. This is made worse in some ways because there is no secondary check method (such as rolling in the open) that can be used to constrain the behaviour. Quite often, the GM would need to drift the situation quite far to get off genre and thus become detectable.

2) This dog would yield no danger whatsoever to the Ranger (Starving Old Dog @ 1 HP, 0 Armor, w[2d4-1] damage. Instinct; to cower in fear or run from danger). If she wanted to kill it, it would be a trivial thing to do so.

3) So having it be aggressive toward her (a) doesn't make a lot of sense to me and (b) doesn't yield any action/adventure/danger.

All together now:

So then, given all of the above together, how do I resolve this situation? Further chase is boring. And she is on top of it, she could track it down again no problem. That doesn't change the situation enough. I look at that sort of resolution in the same way that I look at people who fail to dynamically change the situation in a 4e Skill Challenge and then blame the system for the uninspiring play results ("the king looks uninterested in your in your historical account of his family's oath to take in the refugees of war").

What does Saerie want? She wants to functionally communicate with the dog. What (a) most threatens what she wants, (b) follows from the fiction, and (c) ensures that the game/her life is filled with action/adventure/danger?

To me, the answer is something that will take the dog out completely. I put maddened animals and mutates on the table as an ominous portent earlier in the game. So, how about a herd of stampeding reindeer? Maybe they're mad. Maybe they're running from the coming storm. Maybe something even worse is chasing them? I don't know. However, what I do know and what Saerie's player knows (and obviously Saerie within the fiction) is that a stampede (10) of monstrous reindeer are an absolute deadly threat to a level 3 Dungeon World character. If she has to engage them by herself on the open tundra...it is very, very likely curtains for the PC. And (Far) as a range band isn't significant for a reindeer (you're talking up to 50 MPH in our world). So while they're not "whites of your eyes" range (Near), they are what would be the fictional equivalent of "right on top of you in short order."

50 mph for a couple hundred meters, tops. Typical running speed is half that and typical herd travel speed is half that again. I'd expect the tag to shift from far to near or at worst close next round which makes them a threat but not an immediate one.

She could most likely get out of this pinch on her own, but the dog is a liability here. So I'm basically just proposing the question of "what is this worth to you? How much are you willing to put up for this?" This is the sort of advance/escalation that I would do in Dogs in the Vineyard and I think it applies best (all things considered) here.

I think it'd apply here if the player had rolled a 7-9 total not a 6-. Partial success being of course, you have gained the dog's trust and it is open to you; how do you plan on saving its (and your own) life?
I feel a 6- should remain a failure. "The dog backpadels from you baring its teeth; the beast has obviously had bad interactions with humans in the past. Gaining its trust is going to take much longer if it is at all possible. <Cue herd of reindeer> what do you do?"

So while this is effectively "Show signs of an approaching threat", it is the most amped up version of "approaching threat" as you can legitimately get away with (I did the same with a Rhemorraz later but I foreshadowed it aplenty before). It is a lethal threat to not just the asset she is trying to secure, but also to the PC herself.

QUICK EDIT - If the player would have used aggression as leverage (eg "I advanced threateningly and corner the dog, hoping it will go belly up and submit), I would have definitely attacked. Attacking would have removed the prospects of gaining the dog as an asset (as it would have effectively been suicide).

The context of Leverage/approach, the greater fiction (including the creature's Instinct) surrounding things, and how best to achieve action/adventure/danger (not just to the PC but toward thwarting its intent), means a great deal for the follow-up move that should be made on a 6- Parley move result.

There is very limited material differences between presented result and a theoretical 7-9 result assuming the same threat introduction move was made and the player got the primary goal: the dog became accessible. The failure was short-circuited. It coupld be because the first thing that came to mind and the GM needs to keep the momentum going. It could be the GM is an animal-lover and would prefer a good outcome. It could be because the GM knows the player is an animal-lover and would take a bad outcome more poorly than is desirable. It could also be the GM has future plans for the dog (and the alien egg growing inside it bwah haha) and doesn't want to see that opportunity lost. Why doesn't matter much. The failure was short-circuited.
 

pemerton

Legend
pretty useless prison guards if they a) didn't spell-tie the prisoners' fingers to prevent casting and-or b) foolishly let them keep their spell components and thieves' tools with them in the cell.
The system isn't one that uses spell components (which are also optional in many versions of D&D). There was no tying of hands - instead they locked the prisoners in a windowless cell.

The assassin has never had lockpicking tools. The check to open the prison lock suffered the system penalty for no tools (a double-obstacle penalty, taking it from Ob 2 to Ob 4). I can't remember exactly what she was actually using for the attempt - maybe a buckle or pin from her armour (which hadn't been taken from either prisoner).
 

pemerton

Legend
just because player choice and consequence there of is your primary reason for framing things the way you do does not make the process free of GM Force. You can certainly come up with options that meet the primary need but that also steer the story in a way you prefer.

<snip>

nor do I think that the Powered by the Apocalypse system and other similar game systems are entirely free from GM fiat
Well, this seems to go back to the OP: what is the difference between GM judgement calls and railroading?

Choosing the tower rather than the cliff-top house is a judgement call. I was going for a Tower of the Elephant feel. That's definitely colour, chosen by me as GM. Is it force?

the descriptions you guys are sharing of the systems you are citing don't really sound like my cup of tea at all. I actually enjoy the role of the DM in 5E, as flawed a system as it may be. I don't think that the role as described requires that the game be a railroad, nor do I think that the Powered by the Apocalypse system and other similar game systems are entirely free from GM fiat. I can agree that the mechanics attempt to minimize such concerns...however, I don't really agree that the concern should be that strong at all.

I can imagine a game where the GM uses techniques to force his vision of the game upon the group. Where player choice is undermined or subverted by the GM's whim. If I had suffered through a game like that...or if as GM I found the job daunting or to be too much work...then I could see the appeal of such a system.

But in my experience, those are not areas of concern that need to be addressed.
Different people have different preferences - that's the nature of the world. But I think it's a mistake to see others' preferences through a frame of response to pathology, or to bad experiences.

I developed my GMing preferences running AD&D - in particular, Oriental Adventures (in which PCs have rich backgrounds, hooks and thematic orientation that can drive the framing of the game) and an all-thief game (the same features of thieves that make them hard to integrate into a standard dungeon game make them well-suited to a player-driven, scene-framed game).

I didn't get interested in 4e or BW because I had problems in my game that I wanted to fix. I got interested in them because they seemed to offer new tools for developing what I was already doing. And I wasn't doing that because I was "daunted' or found GMing "too much work". I was doing it because it led to what was, for me, a better RPGing experience.

So I don't see "GM force or whim" as a "concern that needs to be addressed" either. To borrow the PbtA slogan, I'm interested in approaches that let me "play to find out". [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] has said, about half-a-dozen posts up, "I as DM am not playing in order to explore my own world: I already know what's there, or certainly should." Well, I don't share that normative judgement, and I am playing to learn what is in the shared fiction, just as much as the players.
 


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