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Judgement calls vs "railroading"

Tony Vargas

Legend
By "many" you mean just 4e and 5e? 0-1-2-3e's certainly had them and thouugh they may have been optional in 3e I think it was an opt-out situation: components were default unless the DM opted not to use them.
3e hand-waved most material components with the 'spell component pouch,' and you could take feats to reduce the need for components, too.
4e either didn't have them, or they were mandatory, depending on how you chose to look at it. 4e had implements, and not using an implement was like fighting unarmed, but no consumable components for actual spell casting; OTOH, rituals virtually always requires components, that had a gp cost, too.

pemerton started with B/X, I think, for all I know B/X, BECMI, and/or RC could have made components optional in some way.

FWIW, back in the day, I introduced some variant magic items that could reduce the need for many components, in part because I got tired of players not tracking material components, and in part because I wasn't happy with how restricted casting could be & wanted more 'action' compatible PC casting rules.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
In BW, each PC has 3 Beliefs....
Thanks for the explaination.
A preliminary comment - I wouldn't expect the idea of going to the barbarians to suddenly emerge from nowhere.

But what other possibility exists? Here's one: the player just declares "I head north, to meet the barbarians."

That particular action declaration has never occurred in one of my games (that I can remember), but in my BW game one of the players - when his PC was in a difficult situation in the Bright Desert - declared "Everyone knows that Suel tribesmen are thick as fleas on a dog in these parts" and then rolled a Circles check. (It failed - hence the PCs ended up, briefly, in the custody of Wassal.)

Here's another: the player conjectures, "There are barbarians in the north, aren't there?" and then makes a Northern Wastes Lore (or whatever skill is appropriate) check. If it succeeds, the conjecture is true. If it fails, the GM gets to narrate a consequence for failure as usual - there are no barbarians, perhaps; or there are barbarians, but they are democrats who kill all those among them who display pretensions to kingship. (I just made that up, in about twice the time it took to type it.)
Thus the player's declaration forces a roll, the results of which determine and lock in (or lock out) game world content?

So, shared worldbuilding as well as shared story-building. Got it.

And then I see this:

Well, I'm running a game set in Hardby, and I don't have a map, or anything but the info in the GH booklets (pp 23, 25, 41 of the Boxed Set Guide to the WoG):
You're running in a pre-fab setting! Neither you nor your players need to worry o'ermuch about game-world content because much of it has already been done for you. As in...

[T]he heir [of the Landgraf of the Selintan] was wed to the daughter of the Gynarch (Despotrix) of Hardby, a sorceress of no small repute. Their descendants ruled a growing domain . . . In 498 it [Greyhawk] was declared a free and independent city, ruling a territory from Hardby . . . to the Nyr Dyv . . . These holdings have been lost over the intervening decades . . . The Despotrix of Hardby now pays tribute to Greyhawk to avoid being absorbed into the growing city state once again . . . Portions of the [Wild Coast] have been under the control of . . . the Gynarch of Hardby . . . at various times.​
So here you've got a basic history of the town and region already built for you; and the specific locations (Cabal tower, catacombs, etc.) you listed were also pre-fab (though obviously you and-or your players tweaked them to suit your particular fiction).

What this tells me is that much of our recent conversation regarding game-world content has been comparing apples and oranges:

You're using a pre-built setting, so all the heavy lifting of the world and setting construction-history-backstory has already been done by someone else who is not involved in your game; your ongoing fiction simply changes and-or alters and-or affects what's already there. And the players, through possible prior knowledge of the Greyhawk setting, may already know what's out there and why - which removes some of the exploration side.

I'm using a setting I built from scratch just for this campaign. This by default means I needed to determine (and thus know) the "what's already there" ahead of time so that it COULD be changed or altered or affected by what the PCs do once play began. Nobody else fully knows this setting; the players through their characters get to explore it and learn about it as they go, while I occasionally act as gazetteer as well as referee. I don't have a Hardby or a Suel Waste or the sorceress Gynarch or booklets worth of pre-written history and backstory to fall back on; whatever and whoever's out there is my own creation, meaning the history and backstory are also my own. And if this alone makes my game "DM-driven" then so be it, and by extension the same must then be said of the game of any other DM who has built his-her own setting.

Lan-"building one's own setting really forces most of the prep work to happen before play even starts"-efan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Once the PCs failed their checks to talk their way past the guards, you determined that the consequence would be to haul them off to prison. You may feel justified in doing so by the mechanics of the system, but, from this moment going forward, you're thwarting the PC's ability to avoid capture in order to impose a specific outcome: imprisonment. That seems to fit the definition of railroading that I understand you to be using. The only difference is that the outcome the PCs are being railroaded towards was the result of the combination of a failed check and the "no retries" rule, as opposed to having been chosen for story purposes. The consequences to the players after the failed check are identical: either way the character ends up in prison despite having an ability to avoid it.

More generally, I'm struggling to see how framing the game world (e.g. the falcon-proof prison) or resolving PC actions (e.g. preventing a subsequent shapeshift after social interaction failed) to thwart player intent as a result of a failed check (as opposed to simply narrating the failure itself) is ever practically distinguishable from framing the game world or resolving PC actions to thwart player intent to send the story in a particular direction.
Either way, I'm struggling to see how any of this is a Bad Thing.

Whether by railroad or by dice-roll chance or by "framing" - it just doesn't matter. What matters, on the micro-scale of a few minor events like this, is whether the end result moved play along in a way that was interesting, consistent, and believable for all involved*. It seems that in this case it did, so beyond that who really cares?

For me the significant questions only really arise at the macro level - worldbuilding, overall story determination/advancement, ongoing player and-or DM agency, and so forth.

* and if there was some humour or whimsy included, so much the better! :)

Lan-"go directly to jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200."-efan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
3e hand-waved most material components with the 'spell component pouch,' ...
I actually do likewise in my game unless there's a cost involved e.g. the 100+ g.p. pearls for Identify are tracked meticulously.

Which reminds me - two of 'em had their component pouches whacked by a fireball last session, I still need to go through and see what components they can salvage (the players left it in my hands to sort out as the session was ending then anyway).

Lan-"DM homework"-efan
 

pemerton

Legend
By "many" you mean just 4e and 5e?
B/X doesn't have spell components. Spell components are an optional rule in 2nd ed AD&D. They are de facto optional in 3E or 5e (via component pouches, foci). 4e doesn't have spell components. Chainmail/OD&D doesn't have spell components. The only addition to treat material components as fully canonical is 1st ed AD&D.
 


Ilbranteloth

Explorer
If players don't want their PCs to die, then why are they running a system that runs a risk of producing that outcome? It just seems a bit weird - as if the GM fudging is an ad hoc compensation for inadequate mechanics.

In D&D this ought to be trivial - just treat PC "death" (however your particular iteration of D&D defines that) as unconsciousness for some indeterminate moment of time - then the PC regains consciousness being nursed by his/her friends, hanging upside down in an ice cave, or whatever else makes sense in the fiction.

That's one approach. But it really depends on the goal of the players and the game. It's often the more epic storylines (say Lord of the Rings style, or the original Dragonlance campaign) where the players want to sort of follow the original storyline to a large degree. Not my cup of tea, but I can certainly run the game if that's what they are looking for. I prefer more of the living sandbox approach, but I'm just one person at the table.

Is it D&D? Is it an RPG? I'd say yes.

Certainly near death scenes can fit that type of storyline too. But whether it's fudging the dice at the time, or deciding ahead of time that they won't outright die and have prepared alternatives, the end result is the same.

Really, all I'm saying is that after 30+ years of DMing I've met all sorts of players. Especially since a lot of them have been new to the game. Not everybody "gets" the idea of an RPG the same way as others. And for some, it's just not the type of game they've decided to continue playing. D&D is remarkably resilient to a lot of playing styles, and I've seen quite a few. Enough to know that any style I like, or any given style of play, or even a specific rule, is ultimately one of personal preference, either by an individual or a group.

As a DM, I try to not only keep an open mind, but often find that things or approaches I don't think of on my own might work with with other groups.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
It seems to me there are three options.

(1) Prisons that are narrated always have bars, small gaps, etc such that shapechanging PCs can escape them (ie can never be held in prison).

(2) Prisons that are narrated never have bars, small gaps, etc.

(3) Prisons that are narrated sometimes have bars, small gaps, etc; and sometimes not. Given that my setting is a trad fantasy one where timber is more prevalent than worked metal, (3) seems the most logical.

Then, within 3, there is the question - how do we decide which prisons are which? We might roll % dice. BW has a mechanic for that (called the "die of fate") but it is not a major part of the system, because it only comes into play when other considerations that would inform framing and resolution are exhausted.

Another way to decide would be via action declaration and resolution: the player could have tried to roll an Architecture or similar check to discover the gap his falcon-form can fly through. But he chose not to - presumably because he suspected he wouldn't succeed at that.

Given that a DoF was not appropriate, and that the player didn't declare any action relevant to the construction of the prison, my framing stands. It's a consequence of failure; hence, you didn't get what you wanted (ie you're not getting where you wanted to get with your bodies); hence you can't just fly out in falcon form and negate the failure. You're going to actually have to deal with the failure. (Which he did: he created an illusion of himself and the other prisoner; turned the two of them invisible; and then the assassin tried to pick the lock, taking the time to make the attempt with care. Unfortunately that check failed, and so - per the rules of the game - I am entited to impose a major time-based complication (due to the taking of the bonus for a careful attempt). That was the cliffhanger on which we finished our short session last Sunday.)

Not that it matters in the specific discussion, but there's a fourth option (among, as I'm sure, others):

In my campaign it's explicitly stated that in a world where things like magic and shapeshifting exist, that something like the simply prospect of imprisoning somebody is different than in our world. Suspected spell casters, or possibly everyone, is bound and gagged, often in a position that makes it difficult to overcome (such as chaining them in a spread eagle position on a wall). In addition, it's also noted that a reason for the druid's unwillingness to wear metal armor is that wearing metal can interfere with their druidic abilities, including shapeshifting. Metal manacles are enough to prevent this.

Not all locations will take all such precautions against all prisoners. But the fact that the world addresses imprisonment differently in a mundane way, not to mention potential magical precautions, means that they aren't always going to have an easy chance of escaping by spell or shape changing.

Overall, I'm more concerned with developing an internal consistency within the world, so the players have a framework to understand it a bit better. On the other hand, most jails are designed to hold "most" people, and particularly the types of people that are regularly imprisoned in that town, city, etc. So they may not have sufficient protections against higher level spell casters, every type of spell caster, or every special ability.

Defenses against flying creatures and spells is another thing that many have to be prepared for, as another example. Town armories typically have a supply of silver arrows on hand in the event of a lycanthrope attack is another.

Regardless, and important factor is to frame things and set expectations so the players have a good base of understanding to make decisions. Even if something wasn't explicitly described before hand, if you're good at setting expectations and establishing trust with the players, then when there is a new situation that is a bit of a surprise, it's not viewed as a punitive attempt to shut down a character's special ability.
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
It's interesting reading through these posts. I admit I skipped a over a few pages. I don't drop by often enough. I won't even say the discussion is worthless because it helps for people to hear the pros and cons of all styles so they can find the one that suits them. That has value. I do though dislike it when an argument goes beyond what you like to the feeling you are describing a superior way. I really don't think this is a matter of better or worse. Obviously all forms can be played poorly or well. It's more of an apples and oranges thing. We've just discovered that roleplaying is a lot broader subject than perhaps it was in the beginning.

For me, I don't want to create the world as a player. I want to explore what the DM has created and attempt to immerse myself in the idea that I am actually in a world that is independent of me. One where I can prosper or fail by my actions just like real life but definitely not one where I can change the underlying nature of things. I see dungeons as skill challenges for the group. Preparing the right equipment, performing the right steps when inside, and using the right strategies to defeat enemies. I want it to be possible to play poorly and die unintentionally. I was trying to live but I died because I failed to play as well as I should have or even by a twist of fate.

Maybe being part of the original roleplaying generation in the 70's (perhaps just a smidge after that) I just came to love that style of play so I never felt the need to seek another. I do think the ideas put out here are interesting and often things I never conceived of for a game. It's great the game can expand. I think at the root of the edition wars was this dichotomy of playstyle. We bent the game to our own tastes. It's why some people thought 3e such a departure from all that came before while others felt 4e was the great departure. It goes back to how we played 1e & 2e in the first place.

I wish these game design ideas though would become more formally understood and the language more fully developed. I wish game designers would actually target audiences directly instead of straddling different philosophies. It might make us all a lot more satisfied. I know D&D will never do that. They'll always attempt to reach a broad audience. It's why I decided to abandon D&D. But anyone can design a game. So I'm hopeful. Right now the trend is in the other direction with games like dungeon world etc...

I think the whole battle leading up to 5e took the fight out of me. It was tiring and ultimately fruitless.
 

pemerton

Legend
it really depends on the goal of the players and the game.

<snip>

whether it's fudging the dice at the time, or deciding ahead of time that they won't outright die and have prepared alternatives, the end result is the same.

<snip>

Not everybody "gets" the idea of an RPG the same way as others.
I'm not sure whether you think that using mechanics that provide for PC death, but then fudging those mechanical outcomes, is an instace of "getting", or "not getting", the idea of an RPG.

I still think it's a bit weird - if PCs aren't meant to die, then why use mechanics that provide for this possibility?
 

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