D&D 5E No low level Stun spells?

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone.

What level would you put a spell that stuns a target? What if the spell did nothing but stun a target for 1 round? What if it was stunned (save ends)? What if it was a stunning smite?

Taking a look at similar spells, we have tasha's hideous laughter at first level, which incapacitates a target, knocks it prone, and prevents it from standing. This is a concentration (save ends) 1 minute spell, with extra saves if you're attacked. We also have hold person at second level (though it only affects humanoids), which paralyzes a target; it is also concentration (save ends) and 1 minute. Then there is sleep at first level, which has no save but has an HP threshold and automatically targets lower HP targets first. Last, Hold Monster is 5th level, and does what hold person does except it can target any non-undead creature.

So where would a stun spell be?

Save or be stunned 1 round?
Save or be stunned, save ends, concentration 1 minute?
Bonus action, concentration 1 minute, next attack that hits deals Xd6 damage and stuns the target for 1 round?

Thanks

 

[Xeviat]

There's also Stunning Fist to consider. Over time, 1 ki is worth +1 unarmed attack to the monk, except stunning fist acts like the Paladin's Smite on action economy (no action, activated on a hit).

 

[mellored]

Command is also effectively a stun spell.

 

[Satyrn]

Hi everyone.

What level would you put a spell that stuns a target? What if the spell did nothing but stun a target for 1 round? What if it was stunned (save ends)? What if it was a stunning smite?

Taking a look at similar spells, we have tasha's hideous laughter at first level, which incapacitates a target, knocks it prone, and prevents it from standing. This is a concentration (save ends) 1 minute spell, with extra saves if you're attacked. We also have hold person at second level (though it only affects humanoids), which paralyzes a target; it is also concentration (save ends) and 1 minute. Then there is sleep at first level, which has no save but has an HP threshold and automatically targets lower HP targets first. Last, Hold Monster is 5th level, and does what hold person does except it can target any non-undead creature.

So where would a stun spell be?

Save or be stunned 1 round?
Save or be stunned, save ends, concentration 1 minute?
Bonus action, concentration 1 minute, next attack that hits deals Xd6 damage and stuns the target for 1 round?

Thanks

Paralyzed is Stunned with one extra effect (successful attacks from within 5' are automatically critical hits).

I don't think the difference between the two is significant enough to make a "stun person" spell lower level than hold person.

So if you're gonna make it

Save or be stunned 1 round? 1st level.

Save or be stunned, save ends, concentration 1 minute? This is Hold Monster.

Bonus action, concentration 1 minute, next attack that hits deals Xd6 damage and stuns the target for 1 round? Totally depends on the damage, obviously, but I think 2d6 + stun 1 round (with a save to avoid the stun) would work for 2nd level.

 

[Xeviat]

Command is also effectively a stun spell.

Thanks! Command is almost stun, just without the defensive penalties. Would you think a "stun" spell would be unreasonable for 1st level? Command has some extra utility in its versatility, possibly.

Paralyzed is Stunned with one extra effect (successful attacks from within 5' are automatically critical hits).

I don't think the difference between the two is significant enough to make a "stun person" spell lower level than hold person.

So if you're gonna make it

Save or be stunned 1 round? 1st level.

Save or be stunned, save ends, concentration 1 minute? This is Hold Monster.

Bonus action, concentration 1 minute, next attack that hits deals Xd6 damage and stuns the target for 1 round? Totally depends on the damage, obviously, but I think 2d6 + stun 1 round (with a save to avoid the stun) would work for 2nd level.

You don't think the "attacks within 5' are automatically critical hits" bit is worth a spell level? Do you really think "save ends" is worth a full 4 level increase in a spell's duration? I can't find a good example of a spell pair.

 

[Satyrn]

You don't think the "attacks within 5' are automatically critical hits" bit is worth a spell level?

It's because I think the target not getting to act is so big that "automatically critting on a hit" is just icing on the cake.

I'd answer your other question - "Do you really think "save ends" is worth a full 4 level increase in a spell's duration?" - but I can't tell what it applies to. I think maybe it's about my "That's hold monster" comment. If so, I just meant that it looks like hopd monster, with stun in place of paralyze, which wouldn't be significant enough a change anything for me

 

[mellored]

Thanks! Command is almost stun, just without the defensive penalties. Would you think a "stun" spell would be unreasonable for 1st level? Command has some extra utility in its versatility, possibly.

I think a full 1 turn stun would be a bit much for a level 1 spell. Command is pretty potent as is.
Level 2, sure.

IMO:

Stupor
Level 1
Enchantment.
Range 60'
Components: V,S, M (a small amount of alcohol).
You magically halt the thoughts of a target, making it momentarily forget what it was doing. The target makes a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails it's save it is stunned and doesn't remember what happens until it takes damage or until the end of your next turn. Creatures with strange minds such as golems, slimes, plants, and outsiders have advantage on their saving throw.
At Higher Level: When casting at a higher level, you can target 1 additional creature per spell level beyond 1st.

 

[Blue]

What level would you put a spell that stuns a target? What if the spell did nothing but stun a target for 1 round? What if it was stunned (save ends)? What if it was a stunning smite?

Taking a look at similar spells, we have tasha's hideous laughter at first level, which incapacitates a target, knocks it prone, and prevents it from standing. This is a concentration (save ends) 1 minute spell, with extra saves if you're attacked. We also have hold person at second level (though it only affects humanoids), which paralyzes a target; it is also concentration (save ends) and 1 minute. Then there is sleep at first level, which has no save but has an HP threshold and automatically targets lower HP targets first. Last, Hold Monster is 5th level, and does what hold person does except it can target any non-undead creature.

So where would a stun spell be?

Save or be stunned 1 round?
Save or be stunned, save ends, concentration 1 minute?
Bonus action, concentration 1 minute, next attack that hits deals Xd6 damage and stuns the target for 1 round?

Can you please define what you mean by "stunned"?

If you mean "target loses an action" that's one level, and if you mean "target loses their action and has defensive penalties" that's another, and "target loses their action via paralyze which makes every hit into a crit" is higher.

 

[Yunru]

In terms of role it fills, isn't that just Sleep?

 

[Xeviat]

It's because I think the target not getting to act is so big that "automatically critting on a hit" is just icing on the cake.

I'd answer your other question - "Do you really think "save ends" is worth a full 4 level increase in a spell's duration?" - but I can't tell what it applies to. I think maybe it's about my "That's hold monster" comment. If so, I just meant that it looks like hopd monster, with stun in place of paralyze, which wouldn't be significant enough a change anything for me

I mean going from "Stun: saving throw, 1 round" to "Stun: saving throw, concentration 1 minute, save ends": You believe that's a big enough change to go from 1st level up to 5th level? At a 50% save failure rate, save ends is only going to last twice as long (I just spent the last hour fumbling around on excel trying to figure out the rate for higher and lower saves; it's been a long time since I've done a math class).