D&D 5E Non-stealth surprise

[the Jester]

Thanks to everyone for the very helpful replies. I'd like to broaden my question now. The RAW only refer to surprise in the case where the attacker is hidden. Can surprise EVER happen without the attacker hiding?

Actually, the RAW on surprise are: "The DM determines who might be surprised." The passage that follows concerning stealth is a case of what might cause surprise, but not the only one. Another might be the False Appearance trait that some monsters have, or a successful use of Deception.

 

[Ancalagon]

but on the way there, the impatient barbarian attacks a guard.

Btw, a character like that is dangerously psychotic. "I'm bored, I'm going to start a violent confrontation" is bonkers. Why do the rest of the party tolerate this kind of behavior?

 

[Caliban]

Btw, a character like that is dangerously psychotic. "I'm bored, I'm going to start a violent confrontation" is bonkers. Why do the rest of the party tolerate this kind of behavior?

Please. The correct term is "Murder Hobo".

 

[CAFRedblade]

Are they surprised that a guest turns on them and attacks them.. yes. Socially, that's really bad form.
Are they surprised by a blatant and obvious attack by the barbarian.. no. They are trained guards.
At best award either Inspiration, or outright give the Barbarian Advantage this time on his Initiative roll.

Unless the Barbarian tried to hide his prep for an attack, as listed above, deception or sleight of hand to position himself for a swing of his weapon on the nearest 'foe'.

 

[epithet]

I'd even consider the guards to have readied attack actions.

That.

If the barbarian wants to fake the guard out (is the restroom down that hall?) then deception could oppose insight for surprise. If he just says "screw it, I attack the guard" then roll initiative. Any guard that beats his initiative saw him start to draw a weapon and reacted before he could attack, and after he attacks every guard gets an attack on him as a reaction, because guarding a dangerous person means having an attack readied.

 

[Ancalagon]

Please. The correct term is "Murder Hobo".

A hobo is a homeless person who works, a migrant worker in other words. Adventurers are murder hobos because they wander and take dangerous, violent jobs for a living.

Unless the barbarian's group was hired to murder the guards and or king, the barbarian isn't acting as a murder hobo. Of course, the player is free to roleplay his PC as s/he wishes, but it would be wise to play a character who's compatible with the adventurer life. I mean, I could play a character who's unwilling to take any risk but is very interested in making shoes... but that's not an adventurer either.

 

[Caliban]

A hobo is a homeless person who works, a migrant worker in other words. Adventurers are murder hobos because they wander and take dangerous, violent jobs for a living.

Unless the barbarian's group was hired to murder the guards and or king, the barbarian isn't acting as a murder hobo. Of course, the player is free to roleplay his PC as s/he wishes, but it would be wise to play a character who's compatible with the adventurer life. I mean, I could play a character who's unwilling to take any risk but is very interested in making shoes... but that's not an adventurer either.

Sounds like we have slightly different definitions. In the circles I run in, "Murder Hobo" isn't all adventurers, but a type of adventurer - and it's not a compliment.

A murder hobo wanders the land killing random strangers (and occasionally monsters) and taking their stuff - whether or not they have been hired to do so. They are prone to violent solutions to minor problems.

 

[Satyrn]

Sounds like we have slightly different definitions. In the circles I run in, "Murder Hobo" isn't all adventurers, but a type of adventurer - and it's not a compliment.

A murder hobo wanders the land killing random strangers (and occasionally monsters) and taking their stuff - whether or not they have been hired to do so. They are prone to violent solutions to minor problems.

That sounds like every D&D character I've ever seen played.

Well, not actually. The Ptolus group didn't wander the land.

 

[Ancalagon]

Sounds like we have slightly different definitions. In the circles I run in, "Murder Hobo" isn't all adventurers, but a type of adventurer - and it's not a compliment.

A murder hobo wanders the land killing random strangers (and occasionally monsters) and taking their stuff - whether or not they have been hired to do so. They are prone to violent solutions to minor problems.

Please. Murder Hobo is a precise term that has been used for serious economic analysis. See http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/2015/02/16/the-murder-hobo-investment-bubble/

The adventurers you are running with tell themselves they are murder hobos because they are in denial of their lack of rationality, economic-wise.

 

[DemonSlayer]

But it's not an every day occurrence is it? This isn't "oh look, it's Bob the egg-farmer here *again* to complain to the king about the church of the wailing shrieks spooking his chickens". This is a group of armed strangers that want to see their king.

The barbarian would have to do a deception vs insight check at the very least to hide his violent intentions...

Yes, guards do the same routine every day. They may look at the barbarian and go, "whoa, that guy is strong." but they would never expect anyone to openly attack a guard when they are in the castle occupied by an army. That would be suicidal.

It's not that guards would never expect an attack, it's if they did, they would act differently and take precautions to prevent an attack (disarm & restrain, or deny an audience).

They obviously were not expecting an attack, or they would not have taken the party to see the king (presumably armed for war).