D&D 5E In Defense of the Lore Wizard

[ro]

I would be more happy with spell secrets if it could only be done as you prepare the spells. Keeps it away from stepping on the sorcerer's toes, and makes it feel more "studious adaptation" and less "Lol OP Wizzard!"

Considering that wizards generally focus on control spells rather than blasting anyway, what makes Spell Secrets OP?

- The save change is once per rest forever; in comparison, a cleric's Channel Divinity gets up to three times per rest, and can be very powerful (max lightning and thunder damage, for example).
- The damage type change only matters if you happen to have all spells of a single type that happens to be resisted, usually fire. Damage type vulnerability pretty much doesn't exist. As long as you keep one or two backup spells around that can do damage other than fire, you basically have this ability. So the Lore Wizard is saved one or two spell preparations. Is this really OP?

For Alchemical Casting, which is the most Sorcerer toe-stepping:
- The Theurgy tradition steps all over Clerics. People aren't complaining about that.
- The Arcana domain steps on Wizards. No complaints about that.
- The Bladesinger tradition, the Pact of the Blade, the Hexblade, etc., step on melee characters' toes. No complaints about that.
- With all of these features, the base classes that they step on still do it better.
-- Why then is a very limited little bit of metamagic flavor in the wizard considered so out of bounds?
- Thinking more about Alchemical Casting's mechanics, its use basically cancels out Arcane Recovery, and for an ability that was included in Channel Arcana for the Theurgy tradition. It think it would be better to straight up give Wizards one spell point per level that could be spent on these features.

Here are some ideas for replacing Alchemical Casting. What do you think?

Manipulator of Magic
At 6th level, you learn to augment spells in a variety of ways. You gain spell points equal to your wizard level which you can expend to augment its effects for this casting, mixing the raw stuff of magic into your spell to amplify it. The effect depends on the spell points you expend. You may only choose one effect per spell you cast:

• Spend 1 spell point to increase the spell’s raw force. If you roll damage for the spell when you cast it, increase the damage against every target by 2d10. If the spell can deal damage on more than one turn, it deals this extra force damage only on the turn you cast the spell.
• Spend 2 spell points to increase the spell’s range. If the spell’s range is at least 30 feet, it becomes 1 mile.
• Spend 3 spell points to increase the spell’s potency. Increase the spell’s save DC by 2.

Manipulator of Magic
At 6th level, you learn to augment spells in a variety of ways, mixing the raw stuff of magic into your spells to amplify them. When you cast a spell, you may choose one of the following effects. You can use each effect once per rest. Beginning at 6th level, you can use each effect twice between rests, and beginning at 18th level, you can use each effect three times between rests. When you finish a short or long rest, you regain your expended uses.

• Increase the spell’s raw force. If you roll damage for the spell when you cast it, increase the damage against every target by 2d10. If the spell can deal damage on more than one turn, it deals this extra force damage only on the turn you cast the spell.
• Increase the spell’s range. If the spell’s range is at least 30 feet, it becomes 1 mile.
• Increase the spell’s potency. Increase the spell’s save DC by 2.

Teacher of Magic
At 6th level, you have become a teacher of magic. Once per 24 hours or after a long rest, you can choose one ally or friendly creature having an intelligence score of 8 or higher to learn a spell.
Choose one of your cantrips or prepared spells having a level less than or equal to your wizard level divided by four:
[table="width: 200"]
[tr] [td]Wizard Level[/td]
[td]Maximum Spell Level[/td]
[/tr][tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]1st[/td]
[/tr][tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]2nd[/td]
[/tr][tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]3rd[/td]
[/tr][tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]4th[/td]
[/tr][tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]5th[/td]
[/tr][/table]By spending a total of 2 hours studying with this friend and expending any material components of this spell, for the next 24 hours that friend gains the ability to cast this spell once at the maximum level.
Your friend must follow all the normal rules of the spell's casting except that material components are not required. Your friend may use his own spellcasting ability modifier or Intelligence if he doesn’t have one.


Magical Fascination
At 6th level, you have found yourself particularly interested in one aspect of magic. Choose a full spellcaster class (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer, or Wizard). You learn one cantrip and one 1st level spell from this class's spell list which you always have prepared and does not count against your prepared spells. You also gain this class's 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level feature as follows:

• Bard: College Feature and Proficiencies
• Cleric: Channel Divinity
• Druid: Wild Shape
• Warlock: Pact Boon
• Sorcerer: 1st Level Origin Features
• Wizard: 2nd Level School Feature

You use your Intelligence modifier, Wizard levels, and Wizard spells for these features.

 

[Yunru]

It's not about balance (for once), it's about feel.

Spell Secrets as written feels like the subclass recieved a transplant from the Sorcerer. It's both too spontaneous and too sporadic to feel very Wizard.

Now if it was after a short rest, and the change applied until the next short rest, that feels more Wizard. You're taking the time to modify the spell to suit your needs, and the modification doesn't randomly go away after the first casting.

 

[ro]

It's not about balance (for once), it's about feel.

Spell Secrets as written feels like the subclass recieved a transplant from the Sorcerer. It's both too spontaneous and too sporadic to feel very Wizard.

Now if it was after a short rest, and the change applied until the next short rest, that feels more Wizard. You're taking the time to modify the spell to suit your needs, and the modification doesn't randomly go away after the first casting.

To change the feel, what if Spell Secrets were reworded like this?

Spell Secrets
At 2nd level, you master the first in a series of arcane secrets uncovered by your extensive studies. When you prepare your spells, you practice several slight variations on each spell to produce different damage types and require different saving throws.
. When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the spell deals acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage, you can substitute that damage type with one other type from that list (you can change only one damage type per casting of a spell). You replace one energy type for another by altering the spell’s formula as you cast it, just as you practiced.
. When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the spell requires a saving throw, you can change the saving throw from one ability score to another of your choice. Once you change a saving throw in this way, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

 

[Tony Vargas]

To change the feel, what if Spell Secrets were reworded like this?

Still dynamic and 5e-Sorcerer-y

Maybe:

Spell Secrets
At 2nd level, you master the first in a series of arcane secrets uncovered by your extensive studies. When you prepare your spells, you introduce a variation into one or more of them to produce different damage types and require different saving throws.
. When you Prepare a spell that normally the deals acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage, you can substitute that damage type with one other type from that list (you can change only one damage type per casting of a spell). Each time you cast the altered spell with a slot the spell deals the alternate damage type you chose. You replace one energy type for another by altering the spell’s formula as you prepare it, if you want to be able to cast the same spell with either of two energy types you can prepare it again with a different type.
. When you prepare a spell that requires a saving throw, you can change the saving throw from one ability score to another of your choice. Each time you cast the altered spell with a slot the spell requires a save using the stat you chose. You replace one save for another by altering the spell’s formula as you prepare it, if you want to be able to cast the same spell with either of two possible saving throws you can prepare it again with a different formual.

 

[Yunru]

To change the feel, what if Spell Secrets were reworded like this?

Spell Secrets
At 2nd level, you master the first in a series of arcane secrets uncovered by your extensive studies. When you prepare your spells, you practice several slight variations on each spell to produce different damage types and require different saving throws.
. When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the spell deals acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage, you can substitute that damage type with one other type from that list (you can change only one damage type per casting of a spell). You replace one energy type for another by altering the spell’s formula as you cast it, just as you practiced.
. When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the spell requires a saving throw, you can change the saving throw from one ability score to another of your choice. Once you change a saving throw in this way, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

That... doesn't change anything much. You've fixed the problem of it being too sporadic (I think, if it only applies to the instance of the spell being cast it doesn't change anything), but not too spontaneous.

This however:

Spell Secrets. Starting at 2nd level, at the end of a short or long rest you may change the damage type of any number of spells of level 1 or above you have prepared. For each spell changed this way you choose the new damage type it deals.
Additionally you may change the saving throw required for one spell of level 1 or above to a stat of your choice.
These changes last until you choose to change them at the end of a short or long rest.

Probably could cut down on the wording but bleh.

The Wizard is proactive, not reactive. Therefore the ability must also be proactive, not reactive.

 

[ro]

That... doesn't change anything much. You've fixed the problem of it being too sporadic (I think, if it only applies to the instance of the spell being cast it doesn't change anything), but not too spontaneous.

This however:

Spell Secrets. Starting at 2nd level, at the end of a short or long rest you may change the damage type of any number of spells of level 1 or above you have prepared. For each spell changed this way you choose the new damage type it deals.
Additionally you may change the saving throw required for one spell of level 1 or above to a stat of your choice.
These changes last until you choose to change them at the end of a short or long rest.

Probably could cut down on the wording but bleh.

The Wizard is proactive, not reactive. Therefore the ability must also be proactive, not reactive.

I see what you are getting at, but your change changes not just feel but power. Since the objection was to issues of feel only, I think that this nerf is unnecessary. I've tried changing the wording some more to retain the potency but modify the feel:

Spell Secrets
At 2nd level, you master the first in a series of arcane secrets uncovered by your extensive studies. You have learned how to tear down spells to their basic components and modify them to produce different effects. When you prepare spells, you practice several slight variations on each spell to produce different damage types and require different saving throws.
. When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the spell deals acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, radiant, or thunder damage, you can substitute that damage type with one other type from that list (you can change only one damage type per casting of a spell). You replace one energy type for another by using one of the variant formulas you prepared.
. When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the spell requires a saving throw, you can change the saving throw from one ability score to another of your choice. Once you change a saving throw in this way, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

 

[Mephista]

I will never understand the call for "generalist wizard." There's no generalist cleric, general rogue, no general fighter, etc. What makes wizard so special?

Lore Master - Giving expertise is never a ribbon ability is, not sure why you're even bring it up. Ribbons are flavorful abilities on par with the Prestigitation cantrip that have no measurable effect on Exploration, Combat or Interaction. Skill checks, by their nature, always have a measurable effect. Especially on exploration and analyzing magical things you find.

Anyways. Making a knowledge check to analyze weaknesses is kind of iffy, because it depends on a lot of factors. Especially if the monster doesn't have a "weakness," or its a unique monster that, by all rights, shouldn't have something you can just look up in a book. Unless you design a specific class feature that lets you spot something random and target it for some kind of advantage? But that's going to be above and beyond just expertise granting. From the analysis, it sounds like, for you, "weakness" means low saves as well. That's a bit curious, and it feels like your ability comes down to "player gets to see the monster's MM entry." Its really a bit wonky

You should nail down what exactly weaknesses are, how the check reveals it, etc if you're going that route. Make that the ability, and spell it out, rather than rely on the GM playing it exactly as you envision.

Spell Secrets - hrm... nope. Putting aside the whole "doesn't feel wizardly" bits others have brought up, I'm just going to say this: these abilities are basically assuming you're dealing with evocation spells. Or, at least, flasy elemental spells thrown around. That's basically an Evoker in a nutshell. Your "generalist" is starting to feel like an evoker with a different skill set. Hardly a generalist.

Alchemical Casting - And we continue on with the alternate-Evoker theme. AoE on spells? How does that even make sense on things like Charms or Holds or illusions or summons? Same with distance.

Prodigious Memory Ehh... What happened to studying your spell book as a wizard theme? And aren't your previous abilities all about altering existing spells than swapping out your swiss army knife set? If you want to go this route, you're completely clashing with the theme of every other ability save Lore Master. Its ultimately meaningless at this point. I could see this around an entire subclass devoted to thes theme of manipulating your spellbook, but as is?

Master of Magic I'm going to go with a big "nope" on this one. A general wizard archetype should not be using resurrection spells or druid powers. This isn't even related to wizard stuff anymore. Its not a wizard.


In summation - this is just a random grab bag of abilities that you personally like, but don't actually fit into the wizard.

 

[Phazonfish]

There's no generalist cleric, general rogue, no general fighter, etc.

I dunno, the Champion is kinda general Fighter. (Unless want a fighter acting as a general, in which case see the Battlemaster and that archetype from SCAG)

 

[cmad1977]

Meh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Aldarc]

I will never understand the call for "generalist wizard." There's no generalist cleric, general rogue, no general fighter, etc. What makes wizard so special?

Isn't the life cleric, champion fighter, and thief rogue meant to represent the general version of those classes?