D&D 5E Solution to ASI Problem

[Guest 6801328]

I could buy into a system where you get 1 "ASI point" every other level, Feats have a variety of costs, and actual ability points cost what they do for Point Buy, with 17-19 costing 3 and 20 costing 4. Fighters might get a few extra points thrown in.

 

[Nevvur]

I could buy into a system where you get 1 "ASI point" every other level, Feats have a variety of costs, and actual ability points cost what they do for Point Buy, with 17-19 costing 3 and 20 costing 4. Fighters might get a few extra points thrown in.

The bolded part is what I think will be necessary to make the system work (well).

That or ban feats.

 

[Blue]

Sorry, I should have defined that. I had originally intended this as a response to another thread about ASI's that would have provided some context for this post. In the end I created a new thread and lost the context.

Problem: in my opinion one of the main problems with ASI's is that too many character's end up with a 20 in their primary Ability and end up looking like clones.

Solution: Basically, to turn ASI's in to extra Point Buy and increase the cost for higher Attribute purchases. As it is right now, using an ASI to increase to a 20 costs the same as increasing to a 12.

Looking at this within that context, it does prevent a lot of high scores. Since you explicitly list costs about 2, I assume you would allow saving points from one ASI to another.

Here are my concerns:

1. Because you are discounting for racial, this is a very strong encouragement to only go with races that give +2 to your primary attack/spell ability score. +1 is possible but rare, and I don't think you'd ever see someone go with a non-favored race since they start off behind and it's even harder to catch up. This limits the race/class combos and takes a lot of options off the table. Mostly ones chosen for flavor to meet a particular concept, only leaving the most optimized.

2. If someone wants to raise a higher ability score, they will have dead levels where they get nothing, having a four level (or more with some multiclassing) delayed payoff. Really, most times you want to raise a score, you'll want to raise a higher one and it will take multiple ASIs.

3. Relating to the dead levels, taking two ASIs to move from an even to an odd, and then another 2 levels to move from an odd to an even means you take 4 ASIs just to get a +1 to a higher ability score. In a 1-20 game, that's all but one. That's a really slow rate. Perhaps give 4 points of Point Buy each time.

4. The math of the system does not rely on a christmas tree of items, but does have ability score progression up to 20 baked in. I would suggest increasing the proficiency bonus at 4th and 8th each by 1 so the total proficiency range is +2 to +8.

 

[Guest 6801328]

The bolded part is what I think will be necessary to make the system work (well).

Totally agree. Making everything (including the cost of ability scores regardless of current value) be the same price is what breaks the current system.

That or ban feats.

In which case I'd just want to eliminate ASIs as well. They really don't contribute anything to the game except munchkinism.

 

[Ganymede81]

That wouldn't actually solve the point cost issue, as long as higher modifiers cost more points. Presumably the designers would make buying a stat of +3 cost more than increasing three stats from +0 to +1.

Yeah, I kinda left a lot unsaid with that proposal. My desire to replace scores with modifiers overrided the nuts-and-bolts description of how it would work.

 

[ro]

How about limit the stats to 18?

Add some light armor that gives AC 13+dex to get AC 17 from light armor as max once again.

If max score is 18, then you only need 2 ASI's to get the max. 8th level. Then you can beef up secondary stats or take more feat.

In addition you could give extra stats at 2nd,6th,10th,14th and 18th level. That +2 MUST go to your LOWEST stat at that moment. That way you could give lots of extra stats without giving too much power to the character, but improving low priority skills and features.

I like these ideas.

I've always thought it was weird that light armor has only two steps to it, leather and studded leather. (Padded is pointless. There is no reason to ever wear padded unless you are forced to by your DM.)

Maybe drop Hide down from Medium to Light, and make it 13 + Dex?

 

[ccs]

Now that is a different matter entirely. Unlike every other stat beyond the primary, feats are nominally balanced to be roughly as powerful as just increasing a primary stat. The instant you make a feat cheaper than increasing your primary score, you make feats become the only relevant option.

Of course, whatever the cost, you're completely ignoring that there's more choice than only primary score OR feat.
Ex; My 1st 5e character was a Warforged fighter, mostly melee based. By your logic if I'm not taking a feat I have to increase my Str (or at worse Dex I suppose) or vise versa depending upon which is cheaper..
But, despite an 8 INT, at 3rd lv I went Eldritch Knight. My WF fighter was a robot with additional gadgets & upgrades being added, ala Iron Man. So my 1st ASI? It went into my INT.
Since I got more use out of that increased INT than I ever would've another +1 to hit/dam or any feat in the PHB, raising my INT sure seems a relevant choice.

No rational actor is going to choose nothing at level 4, in the hopes of improving their primary stat at level 8, if they could gain power equivalent to improving their primary stat right now instead. The only ones who lose out on this deal are characters who don't have any real feat options, like some spellcaster types.

You're mostly right on the 1st half of this. There's no good reason not to take something at 4th lv. Afterall, the game could end or your character killed while you sit on your hands waiting to hit lv 8.

As for the 2nd part? THAT depends upon the character you've made & how you play. Just because you don't see the value of some feat/class combo doesn't mean I don't have decent options.

 

[Yardiff]

Question here. Did you actually play the earlier editions are is this just hearsay? Because what I remember when playing back then was...
1) rolling was done in front of everyone or at least the GM
2) the DMG has this in it, "As AD&D is an ongoing game of fantasy adventuring, it is important to allow participants to generate a viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires. While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy - which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can't or won't identify with. Character generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used."
3) the PHB had this in it, 1e PHB pg 9. "Furthermore, it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no fewer than two ability characteristics."

While not all GMs might have followed these suggestions, the good ones did. (my opinion)

Of course generally you needed a 15 to get bonus from an ability score.

Also the GMs I played with usually had various houserules to give bonuses to stats and if you wanted to play a specific class the GM worked with you so you could.


My opinion, ASI are mostly needed because of the standard array and point buy pre-racial cap of 15.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Ex; My 1st 5e character was a Warforged fighter, mostly melee based. By your logic if I'm not taking a feat I have to increase my Str (or at worse Dex I suppose) or vise versa depending upon which is cheaper..
But, despite an 8 INT, at 3rd lv I went Eldritch Knight. My WF fighter was a robot with additional gadgets & upgrades being added, ala Iron Man. So my 1st ASI? It went into my INT.
Since I got more use out of that increased INT than I ever would've another +1 to hit/dam or any feat in the PHB, raising my INT sure seems a relevant choice.

I don't follow. Is there some mechanic under Eldritch Knight, where they need a minimum Intelligence score to cast spells or something? What use do you get out of increasing your Int, aside from +1 to a number of skill checks?

As for the 2nd part? THAT depends upon the character you've made & how you play. Just because you don't see the value of some feat/class combo doesn't mean I don't have decent options.

There are character concepts which don't benefit much from feats. I can't name them off the top of my head, because I avoid feats whenever possible, but there just aren't as many feats out there which benefit spellcasters to the same degree that increasing their spellcasting stat would; and there are plenty of feats which are comparable to +2 Strength or Dexterity, for fighter types. While there may be some spellcaster concepts which nevertheless get great mileage out of certain feats, there are also concepts which don't have feats that would benefit them significantly, and those are the characters who would lose out in this situation.

 

[Sunseeker]

Sorry, I should have defined that. I had originally intended this as a response to another thread about ASI's that would have provided some context for this post. In the end I created a new thread and lost the context.

Problem: in my opinion one of the main problems with ASI's is that too many character's end up with a 20 in their primary Ability and end up looking like clones.

Solution: Basically, to turn ASI's in to extra Point Buy and increase the cost for higher Attribute purchases. As it is right now, using an ASI to increase to a 20 costs the same as increasing to a 12.


EDIT: grammar

How would this resolve the problem of people looking like clones? If Joe and Bob are both Fighters, and can't get a 20 in STR, then they're going to try to get as high as possible.

Even if it gave you points for point buy, making it easier to raise low scores than raise high ones, you still run into the problem that Fighters don't value Int, Wis or Cha. I mean sure, Joe could spend 2 point-buy points to raise his Wisdom...but...why would he? What incentive is there for him to raise that score?

You want to address issues with clones then the only solution is to increase the mathematical relevance of non-primary scores to classes.