D&D 5E Warden

Just a quick glance at it makes me uneasy. I like the concept, but not the execution.

The Paladin was the inspiration for much of how this class works. I'm sure that statement alone is going to fuel hatred. Add in a Gnome with +to Dex and +Int and a Rapier and I may have created the most hated class possible. :D

Problems
- Gaining an extra damage die on every attack without cost of resources, and getting it from 2nd level on.

So this ability comes at the same time as a Paladin gets Divine Smite. But where the Paladin can choose when to Smite and get burst damage of +2d8(or more), this instead gets a constant, but much less sustained damage of +1d4. It even comparatively goes down a little in power at later levels when the Paladin gets its own +1d8 damage to attacks at 11. It also happens at the same time that the Ranger gets Hunter's Mark.

- Gaining proficiency bonus to A.C. without cost of resources or even Reaction, and getting it from 3rd level on. Combined with a Shield spell and Medium Armor this makes for a pretty high A.C.

So the purpose of this, is the class doesn't get proficiency in shields. In fact, many of the class and subclass abilities don't work if you equip a shield. This gives a shield like ability that represents the class being able to deflect blows with magic, as long as it has a free hand. It also can't use two handed melee weapons, so the weapon side of damage will stay down as they want this bonus.

- Teleporting built into the class
This isn't much different then a class like a Shadow Monk, also a 60' bonus action teleport, at a later level. Or the Shadow Sorcerer, a 120' teleport as a bonus action. It also has a number of things that can be done as a bonus action, so it won't be doing it every turn, at least not without sacrificing in some other way.

- Magic Resistance built into the class.
Sure, it does get magic resistance, but not until level 18 and only against spells. No good on traps, effects like a creatures poisonous bite, or environmental effects. I didn't see this as overpowered, but I could be wrong.

- Learns a new spell every level.
Compared to the Paladin, sure it gets a spell each level, but that's all it gets. The paladin may have less spells prepared, but it has the ability to switch them out for any other spell over a long rest.
 

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Ah yes... the naming problem.

This has been the bane of the arcane warrior concept since the very beginning-- we've never come up with a satisfactory name for it. It always ends up resulting in paired or compound words we smush togther... Eldritch Knight... Swordmage... Spellblade etc. etc.

The one word that's been always used as the name for this concept is unfortunately a nonsense word that I don't think most people would ever actually want as a proper name-- "Gish". We all use it as a stopgap, but no one really thinks it has any heft to it like either 'Paladin' or 'Ranger' does.

I commend you in trying to use Warden as the name for your arcane warrior... unfortunately you are fighting against at least one edition (if not more) of class-name tradition that says a Warden is basically a Nature Tank (a la the Oath of the Ancients Paladin). As a result, you probably won't get much traction from people on it.

The Sterling Vermin Co. has named their arcane warrior the 'Magus', which I think is slightly better... but in truth its so close to 'Mage' that it makes me want to say "Let's just call an arcane warrior a 'Mage' and be done with it." But again unfortunately, we have an entire edition that has used Mage as the baseline arcane caster back when the name 'Wizard' hadn't yet been hammered down. Plus with its same use in WoW... trying to then change it over to an arcane warrior isn't going to be accepted by many people either.

Many more people besides just me have done searches on thesaurus.com in search of wizard or witch or magician synonyms to co-op and use for the arcane warrior... and nothing has stuck. Genius? Virtuoso? Marvel? Nope, nope, and nope.

In truth... I think the only real option remaining is to just once and for all choose a standard word that is fighter-esque and just SAY that it has magical connotations... even if it never necessarily had. After all... the word 'Paladin' was never really originally connected to any religiousness per se... for what we've always used it in for in D&D the name really probably should have been 'Crusader' or 'Templar' all along. And likewise, 'Ranger' was never considered a magical outdoorsman until D&D gave them spellcasting and they became the druidic-like "half caster". So despite the fact that none of these words denote magical ability (and indeed have been used in other ways before) if we want a one-word class name for an arcane caster, we have to just bite bullet and starting using it over and over until it GAINS the arcane connotations from the game that we're putting on it.

Advocate
Archon
Booster
Consul
Dynast
Gallant
Guardian
Luminary
Myrmidon
Paragon
Sentinel
Vindicator

Given my druthers, I'd just start using 'Archon' for the arcane warrior class. Sure, it's been used in D&D as the replacement for "Angels", but at least in 5E angels have returned in use. So since 'Archon' is a real word, is almost pronounced the the same as "arcane", has traditionally been a magical celestial creature/monster in D&D so it has a connection to magic, and at least in my opinion sounds cool as a word... then screw it, let's just co-opt it for the arcane warrior once and for all.

And if other people don't like it, then let's go with 'Luminary' or 'Paragon'. But at least we can say we've chosen something. ;)
 
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[MENTION=6866167]Thurmas[/MENTION] i have always been a fan of "Gishes". I love the concept. When I said that I didn't care for you execution that was basically because what you wrote up included EVERYTHING that a Gish could possibly want. It is awesome at everything, without a substantial weakness.

High A.C.
Even with just scale armor, basic +2 Proficiency, no shield and no DEX bonus it can still have an A.C. of 21 with the Shield spell, add in a modest 14 DEX and you get 23 AC right away. With the option to use INT + DEX when not wearing armor, the Shield spell and Profiency bonus you have a potential 31 AC with a full +6 Proficiency and +5 in each Ability. Speaking of the Proficiency Bonus to A.C. that is like giving them a +4 Shield as a class feature by the time they get to high levels.

Empowered Weapon
Giving that extra damage die to every attack at no cost is powerful enough in itself, but then they change their damage type to Force, Necrotic or Elemental damage on top of that, allowing them to bypass Damage Reduction.

Movement Modifiers
I am not a fan of teleport abilities to begin with, but making it a class feature free of resources is too much. Also, the ability to fly is quite powerful.

Hit Points and Healing
Adding all of this to a warrior class with d10 HP, plus giving them so many healing options is an issue.

. . . There were more points to make, but I am running out of time right now and not focused enough.

The main point I wanted to make is that my problem is not with any specific class feature here, but with the sum of them when working together in one character. From a strictly optimization perspective this class seems like a dream. Tons of front-loaded abilities for multi-classing combos. Even as a single class it seems more effective at almost everything than any other single class. The only thing it can't directly compete at is casting high level spells like a full caster.
 

Interesting concept.

A few tweaks to consider to nerf it a bit:
- make the teleport 30' (misty step-ish) and limit the use to a #of times = INT modifier. Recharge after long rest.
I can see how this is an issue, although it is very similar to the features of other subclasses. I could tune it down some. Maybe once per short rest.

- extra damage die: use it # of times = INT modifier, recharge after long rest. Maybe regain a single use after short rest.
This is one ability I really want to keep as is. Key to making this class was the ability of the class to enhance their own attacks and add the signature damage of their discipline. It doesn't strike me as over the top compared to some others, such as Hex, Hunter's Mark, Paladin smites, etc.

- Detect Magic - need to use an action or bonus action or reaction - not always on
That's reasonable.

- Dispel Magic - use once per short rest
Also reasonable.

- Make learning new spells the same as Ranger, for simplicity
Not a huge fan of the Ranger's method. I modeled this after the Eldritch Knight, although to be fair the EK doesn't learn one new one every level.
 

Reading through, getting a feel for how it fits together. Some first pass thoughts:

Because of the oddness in how the 5e rules on components are written, you can do somatic components with a hand holding an arcane focus ONLY if it also has material components. I would suggest increasing the power of Spellcasting Focus to allow the hand holding the one-handed weapon to also do somatic components.

On the other hand, you've got a definite one-handed/no shield vibe going so that maybe moot.

I notice that Shield Ward will end up giving a higher AC (since it works with heavy armor) than Bladesinging, which many people already complain about. And it works when surprised and against attack before a bladesinger could start singing. Plus it's on a d10 HD chassis instead of a d6 HD chassis. And it will advance with proficiency without needing additional investment into INT like the bladesinger. That ends up being too good.

(Oh, and while your meaning is clear, someone could argue that they equip a shield, and then the next round this comes back on so it will stack. May want to check the wording.)

Distant Step - x2 move bonus action teleport every round without limit (in addition to your move) is a very significant amount of mobility for a non-skirmisher. (And your AC & HPs are not in line with the class being a skirmisher.) I'd suggest maybe INT mod (min 1) times per long rest.

Spell Shatter - I like this as is. But I'd like to suggest an alternative:

  • When targetted with a spell that requires an attack roll, as a reaction you can counterspell it as long as you are wielding your Spellcasting Focus.
  • Whenever you cast counterspell or dispel magic, includign when using this ability, you add any magical weapon bonus from your Spellcasting Focus.

This gives the whole striking the spell with your sword and destroying it. It's more powerful with counterspelling (so avoiding instantaneous effects and protecting others) but is weaker in that it only works for spells with attack rolls, not ones with saves.

Expediency doesn't mention anything about breaking the normal rules that if you cast a spell with a bonus action that the only other spells you can cast that round are cantrips. Did you intent it to avoid this and allow two spells in a round once per short rest, or is this just a "full non-casting action plus a spell"?

Elemental Dicipline - I like this the whole way though, including the capstone.

Arcane Discipline - The AC gets too high when you combine it with shield ward. You can easily have a naked AC of 26 at higher levels. That's way outside bounded accuracy even before you consider Shield is not only on the spell list but auto-granted as a Disciplie Spell.

I know other classes have 10 + 2 ability scores, but Shield Ward pushes it way over the edge even before considering Shield.

And if you allow multiclassing that only takes 3 levels of Warden (and the 20 INT & DEX), so you can go for anything else. Warden 3 / Bladesinger X with Bladesong and using Shield would reach a naked AC of 36 before any magic items or spells. Haste would be +2, Greater Invisibility would grant disadvantage, etc. That's not precisely a problem with the Warden class, but every new expansion needs to consider the previous expansions and it was here first.

I'm good with the rest of the Arcane Discipline. The capstone is powerful but limited in usage.

Blood Discipline - this is going creepy and it works. Love the feel.

Blood Feast is pretty nice, especially since you're doing bonus damage with Empower Weapon. Not overpowered-nice, more like "this is a very valid move, let me use it" nice. And it works well with Touch of Atrophy at 16th. I can see a Blood Discipline wanting Haste up ASAP for additional attacks - which is right in the groove for a gish.

Blood Discipline is the one that most directly feeds physical attacking and spells for defense, including the discipline list.

I haven't gone through the spells in detail, but I do see that most of the "I want that to gish" spells are on it. So it's a solid, powerful spell list.

Summary:
All in all, on first pass I like it. The Disciplines have good feel and mechancially support that feel.

Shield Ward is flat out too powerful. It breaks bounded accuracy, on a d10 HD class, with medium armor proficiency so you don''t need to sink a lot into DEX, and that has Shield on it's list. I'd suggest nixing it completely. Due to the bonus damage on attacks the class does two-handed weapon damage on attacks already, giving in a shield that grows up to x3 shield is too much. From a balance perspective I'd completely drop it. The only way I'd say to keep it is to limit to to only vs. Spell attacks.

I know you've defended it in other posts. The reason it keeps getting pointed out is that it's really that strong. REALLY.

If it's gone, I'm okay with Arcane Discipline's version of unarmored defense, even with Shield and d10 HPs. (Though not how it stacks with Bladesinger, but that's not really the fault of the Warden.)

I don't like unlimited teleport on a non-skirmisher class. Reduce HD and AC and it's in line with the other classes that get it, but on this chassis it's too much. I'd put in a limit like INT times per long rest.

I would suggest noting that when you talk about level, you mean class level, not character level. Otherwise there's a lot to cherry-pick when it comes to multiclassing.

All in all I think there's a really nice feel, but there are a few point that I think need some polish for balance. Definitely worthy.
 

Advocate
Archon
Booster
Consul
Dynast
Gallant
Guardian
Luminary
Myrmidon
Paragon
Sentinel
Vindicator

I have no interest in such a class myself, but if it's going to exist "Archon" would get my vote.
 
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High A.C.
Even with just scale armor, basic +2 Proficiency, no shield and no DEX bonus it can still have an A.C. of 21 with the Shield spell, add in a modest 14 DEX and you get 23 AC right away. With the option to use INT + DEX when not wearing armor, the Shield spell and Profiency bonus you have a potential 31 AC with a full +6 Proficiency and +5 in each Ability. Speaking of the Proficiency Bonus to A.C. that is like giving them a +4 Shield as a class feature by the time they get to high levels.

Shield Ward is flat out too powerful. It breaks bounded accuracy, on a d10 HD class, with medium armor proficiency so you don''t need to sink a lot into DEX, and that has Shield on it's list. I'd suggest nixing it completely. Due to the bonus damage on attacks the class does two-handed weapon damage on attacks already, giving in a shield that grows up to x3 shield is too much. From a balance perspective I'd completely drop it. The only way I'd say to keep it is to limit to to only vs. Spell attacks.

Ok, so I'm seeing over and over that people think it is too powerful. I can see that being true. My main purpose to was giving the class an ability to protect itself through magic, as long as they had a free hand or focus to defend themselves.

I still like having it be in the format it is and have it scaling. What if it provides a bonus to AC = to half your proficiency bonus (minimum +1)? It caps out at +3, the same as a +1 shield.

I'll make a couple edits to the original post to tone down some other features as well.
 

Yes you need to go over the abilities and start giving a few of them uses per short/long rest. Hmm, made me think of an awesome idea for a class or subclass of the fighter
 

I have no interest in such a class myself, but if it's going to exist "Archon" would get my vote.

I agree, Archon probably tops my list too. I even used it as the name of a capstone for one of the subclasses.

I think the one that really got Warden to stick for me was the subclass namings. "Blood Warden" just sounded terrifying.
 

Ok, so I'm seeing over and over that people think it is too powerful. I can see that being true. My main purpose to was giving the class an ability to protect itself through magic, as long as they had a free hand or focus to defend themselves.

The Warden does more damage then a 2-handed weapon, and does it with an AC bonus in the range of a shield, AND does all that with a hand free for casting, grappling, drinking a potion, etc. That's the trifecta where you have every possible advantage from two weapon, weapon and shield, and weapon and free hand without any of the drawbacks. Pick two at most.

Frankly, I like the damage boost. I bring it up so you can see this through the lens I'm looking at it.

Now, if you wanted something arcanely defensive that will help the character without boosting numbers, allow adding INT instead of DEX to AC. This way you avoid the MAD, and raising INT helps with many class features, spell DCs, AND can boost AC. Still limited by max DEX in medium armor, it's not changing the top end of the numbers in regards to bounded accuracy, just helping the Warden to realize all of their potential and do it starting at a lower level.
 

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