D&D 5E Warlock group think

[TheOneGargoyle]

Since I've been doing math today, I accept the challenge! It would probably help a lot of people actually see the numbers here anyway, so I'll do my best.

Hey, anyone who does math for a forum post gets kudos from me. So well done good sir !

I'm comparing a warlock (any patron, any boon) who uses eldritch blast plus Agonizing Blast, and hex with three other warlocks: a Hexblade who uses the same attacks (ie, eldritch blast), a Pact of the Blade warlock who is not a Hexblade, and a Pact of the Blade warlock who is.

I might be reading it wrong, but have you got the base DPR for a Hexblade Bladelock without Curse, Hex, or anything else ? Cos that'd be what I'd be interested in comparing to the EB+AB column, and I'm guessing it's not just the same as the Bladelock b/c of primary stat .... or have I missed something ?

Now, aside from a blip at 5th level, you'll see that weapon wielders actually do better than eldritch blast wielders before level 11.

What causes that blip btw ? Cos nothing is immediately coming to mind that would cause that .....

Second, look at the difference in investment required.

I agree there is a big difference in investment. I can't speak for anyone else other than myself but I certainly am ok with the higher level of investment required to make a hexblade work, and I imagine that many others are too.

Out of interest, did you include the optional Imp Pact Wpn +1 dmg and +1 to hit and corresponding increase in DPR from increased accuracy ?

the point isn't about whether you should care about damage or not. The point is that if you do care about damage, the rules ought to mechanically work the way the fluff implies to let you actually do as well with your weapon as not, instead of requiring you to sell your arm and your leg along with your soul for mediocre results.

Agreed, but is that really the case ?

I know the investment is already very high, but what about adding Polearm Master into the mix ? Realistically many hexblade bladelocks would add that which would give them a DPR boost with a BA attack. That would help close the DPR gap, although obviously at the cost of increasing the investment gap even further.

 

[Warpiglet]

Hey, anyone who does math for a forum post gets kudos from me. So well done good sir !



I might be reading it wrong, but have you got the base DPR for a Hexblade Bladelock without Curse, Hex, or anything else ? Cos that'd be what I'd be interested in comparing to the EB+AB column, and I'm guessing it's not just the same as the Bladelock b/c of primary stat .... or have I missed something ?



What causes that blip btw ? Cos nothing is immediately coming to mind that would cause that .....



I agree there is a big difference in investment. I can't speak for anyone else other than myself but I certainly am ok with the higher level of investment required to make a hexblade work, and I imagine that many others are too.

Out of interest, did you include the optional Imp Pact Wpn +1 dmg and +1 to hit and corresponding increase in DPR from increased accuracy ?



Agreed, but is that really the case ?

I know the investment is already very high, but what about adding Polearm Master into the mix ? Realistically many hexblade bladelocks would add that which would give them a DPR boost with a BA attack. That would help close the DPR gap, although obviously at the cost of increasing the investment gap even further.

Agreed. The math is good to see. However, if we are talking such high levels, in addition to adding charisma damage via invocation we should also think about magic weapons. Perhaps a plus 3 weapon could be considered. Not only will this add to direct damage but it would also convert some misses to hits. Additionally, if we are burning 5th level spells for hex of which we only have three, would it not make sense To look at damage without hex? I have to assume some concentrations could be broken. Lastly, how much would great weapon master factor in? Judicious use still means extra attacks at times along with occasionally higher damage.

I do respect the calculations but believe with other factors considered it is closer than projected. For me huge differences in damage matter but say even 10 points a round at level 20? I can handwave that for the sake of style and variety.

Do you invest too much to make it close as blade pact? Not if you like fighting. Investing to realize a concept is ok with me.

 

[Warpiglet]

Hey, anyone who does math for a forum post gets kudos from me. So well done good sir !



I might be reading it wrong, but have you got the base DPR for a Hexblade Bladelock without Curse, Hex, or anything else ? Cos that'd be what I'd be interested in comparing to the EB+AB column, and I'm guessing it's not just the same as the Bladelock b/c of primary stat .... or have I missed something ?



What causes that blip btw ? Cos nothing is immediately coming to mind that would cause that .....



I agree there is a big difference in investment. I can't speak for anyone else other than myself but I certainly am ok with the higher level of investment required to make a hexblade work, and I imagine that many others are too.

Out of interest, did you include the optional Imp Pact Wpn +1 dmg and +1 to hit and corresponding increase in DPR from increased accuracy ?



Agreed, but is that really the case ?

I know the investment is already very high, but what about adding Polearm Master into the mix ? Realistically many hexblade bladelocks would add that which would give them a DPR boost with a BA attack. That would help close the DPR gap, although obviously at the cost of increasing the investment gap even further.

Actually, a closer look at the table answers some additional questions.

First, the gap really emerges with hex and curse at three attacks. Secondly, if we add feats, this will be mitigated with again a large investment. However, if damage is your thing, a magic weapon and greatweapon master can make it tighter.

So the tables are very interesting. However, a few questions:

If we add eldritch smite to the mix, what happens? For one thing, we will have one less hex! However, we might actually use this on a crit. Heck we probably will use this on a crit with the hexblade curse! This means we are looking at big damage to a single target.

Additionally, we are looking at a 19-20 crit range with a hexblade's curse. If we have GWM, we are looking for an extra swipe every ten strikes.

Additionally, when we knock a person down with the eldritch smite, we have advantage on follow through. Great weapon master would shine here and it would be time to take a -4 for a chance at +10 perhaps.

I do not argue with the table per se, but do not think they take into account the variables of eldritch smite or great weapon master OR magic weapons beyond a +1.

I do not have time to crunch those variables right now. But painting with broad strokes, I believe a GWM hexblade could actually outperform in damage on single targets in single encounters. And I also think the gap is not quite as large generally.

The opportunity cost of hexes (vs. fifth level spells) should be considered as well. Without hex, there is less of a gap of course. This however is much less of an issue when you actually get reasonable short rests.

Very interesting questions to ponder (to me at least!).

With heavy investment, I do think the blade pact and particularly the hexblade blade pact are much closer to a blaster than conventional wisdom suggests. It is not enough to dissuade me from having that sort of fun. But I do concede capping EB at three attacks would be reasonable. I doubt I will play to 4 beams in any event.

Last thought: with the melee centric blade pact I plan to play, will likely ignore warcaster and perhaps even resilient con with the idea that I will drop most spells into eldritch smiting...if you are a blaster I think warcaster is something you DO want or else disadvantage in close range kicks in...

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I might be reading it wrong, but have you got the base DPR for a Hexblade Bladelock without Curse, Hex, or anything else ? Cos that'd be what I'd be interested in comparing to the EB+AB column, and I'm guessing it's not just the same as the Bladelock b/c of primary stat .... or have I missed something ?

It actually is the same as a non-Hexblade Bladelock. I had them max Strength first, and the Hexblade max Charisma first in the table, so their attack stat is maxed at the same time either way. Also, Charisma is maxed for the non-Hexblade at the same time Lifedrinker is acquired, so no differences there either.

What causes that blip btw ? Cos nothing is immediately coming to mind that would cause that .....

Woops! I thought Thirsting Blade wasn't available until 6th level. I should have checked that one more closely. I've had that wrong in my head for years now.

Out of interest, did you include the optional Imp Pact Wpn +1 dmg and +1 to hit and corresponding increase in DPR from increased accuracy ?

No, I just noted that one could optionally take them. The additional investment would slightly increase damage, of course.

I know the investment is already very high, but what about adding Polearm Master into the mix ? Realistically many hexblade bladelocks would add that which would give them a DPR boost with a BA attack. That would help close the DPR gap, although obviously at the cost of increasing the investment gap even further.

That is the conventional way it is done--maybe with a fighter dip at 1st level for armor and Con saves. Hexblade does some really nice damage if you want to go with Polearm Master. That should increase their upper end damage by about 26%-41% depending on the column. But that's not really a good way to evaluate a class, since feats (and multiclassing) are optional rules. Otherwise we have to take account of the Sorlock and Champion/Barbarian Great Weapon Master's, etc.

If we add eldritch smite to the mix, what happens? For one thing, we will have one less hex! However, we might actually use this on a crit. Heck we probably will use this on a crit with the hexblade curse! This means we are looking at big damage to a single target.

Additionally, we are looking at a 19-20 crit range with a hexblade's curse. If we have GWM, we are looking for an extra swipe every ten strikes.

Additionally, when we knock a person down with the eldritch smite, we have advantage on follow through. Great weapon master would shine here and it would be time to take a -4 for a chance at +10 perhaps.

I do not argue with the table per se, but do not think they take into account the variables of eldritch smite or great weapon master OR magic weapons beyond a +1.

You are correct. All sorts of even heavier investment can ramp those numbers up quite a bit, and Hexblades in particular can nova well.

I do not have time to crunch those variables right now. But painting with broad strokes, I believe a GWM hexblade could actually outperform in damage on single targets in single encounters. And I also think the gap is not quite as large generally.

The opportunity cost of hexes (vs. fifth level spells) should be considered as well. Without hex, there is less of a gap of course. This however is much less of an issue when you actually get reasonable short rests.

The great thing about hex is that the opportunity cost is relatively low. If you are sticking with it as your concentration spell, it can last all day long. You only have to put it back up when you lose your concentration (which is less often with Hexblade due to their AC).

Very interesting questions to ponder (to me at least!).

Yep! Just wanted to get that info out there so it's easier to discuss specifics.

 

[Warpiglet]

It actually is the same as a non-Hexblade Bladelock. I had them max Strength first, and the Hexblade max Charisma first in the table, so their attack stat is maxed at the same time either way. Also, Charisma is maxed for the non-Hexblade at the same time Lifedrinker is acquired, so no differences there either.



Woops! I thought Thirsting Blade wasn't available until 6th level. I should have checked that one more closely. I've had that wrong in my head for years now.



No, I just noted that one could optionally take them. The additional investment would slightly increase damage, of course.



That is the conventional way it is done--maybe with a fighter dip at 1st level for armor and Con saves. Hexblade does some really nice damage if you want to go with Polearm Master. That should increase their upper end damage by about 26%-41% depending on the column. But that's not really a good way to evaluate a class, since feats (and multiclassing) are optional rules. Otherwise we have to take account of the Sorlock and Champion/Barbarian Great Weapon Master's, etc.



You are correct. All sorts of even heavier investment can ramp those numbers up quite a bit, and Hexblades in particular can nova well.



The great thing about hex is that the opportunity cost is relatively low. If you are sticking with it as your concentration spell, it can last all day long. You only have to put it back up when you lose your concentration (which is less often with Hexblade due to their AC).



Yep! Just wanted to get that info out there so it's easier to discuss specifics.

After much reflection...

I am mapping out a hexblade for play and lookiing at which feats and ASIs I might want. Invocations are just as important. My biggest concern with all of this is that if you do choose to go all in with melee damage you do give up a lot of versatility.

I think misty visions and mask of many faces are really great utility AND warlock flavor. If I have everything put into high damage output, it waters down the warlock's fluff in my opnion. I do not want to be a fighter by another name with spikier damage.

I am really thinking giving some ground might be the way to go--I do not really WANT to go single weapon but it would mean fewer ASIs and perhaps more flavorful feats. Or in my classic style, I might half ass both approaches and meet in the middle.

Anyone ever have a high of 16 in a casting state at higher level?!