D&D 5E What if Combat Cantrips looked like this instead...

[Ganymede81]

Arcane Blast

When you take an attack action, you can make one ranged spell attack. This attack requires verbal and somatic components as if it were a spell.

This attack has a range of 60 feet. On a hit, the target takes fire, lightning, or cold damage equal to 1d6 plus your spellcasting modifier.

***

What if combat cantrips worked like this (modeled as a wizard's cantrip) in lieu of working via the "Cast a spell" action? You'd essentially give every caster a combat cantrip like this and then let them take non-combat/support cantrips with the remainder of their slots.

This would treat cantrip attacks as far more akin to weapon attacks, and would allow for abilities to enhance them in the same way (whether something similar to a Battle Master's maneuvers or a Rogue's sneak attack, etc.). It would also allow for the power level of cantrip attacks to progress in the same way as regular attacks (via a modified Extra Attack feature or otherwise). It'd eliminate the need to scale cantrips within the spell itself.

What do you guys think? Does this have potential?

 

[corwyn77]

I don't object to casters automatically getting an attack cantrip and use their other slots for defense/utility but this opens a can of worms. Would you give all casters extra attacks at the fighter's rate? If you don't, cantrips will suck at higher levels and they're supposed to be viable options at all levels. If you do, suddenly Clerics get as many attacks as fighters, Tricksters now get multiple attacks to apply sneak attack, etc.

As an aside, I recently played a trickster and I wanted to emphasize magic more so my dm allowed me to sneak attack with firebolt with the caveat that when doing so, I could only get one die from the bolt. It worked fine, damage was within a point of using a shortbow and I had a viable option if I couldn't get SA and I didn't have to worry about ammo but it wasn't subtle.

 

[Ganymede81]

I don't object to casters automatically getting an attack cantrip and use their other slots for defense/utility but this opens a can of worms. Would you give all casters extra attacks at the fighter's rate? If you don't, cantrips will suck at higher levels and they're supposed to be viable options at all levels. If you do, suddenly Clerics get as many attacks as fighters, Tricksters now get multiple attacks to apply sneak attack, etc.

Presumably, you'd enhance the power of magical attacks in all the myraid ways that weapon attacks are enhanced.

I could see perhaps a wizard getting four magical attacks in total, like a fighter, but I could easily envision other spellcasting classes getting other bonuses instead. Some might be able to add riders to the magical attacks (shove, trip, slow, etc.), others might be able to add progressively more damage dice to one attack, while others would simply gain Extra Attack at 5th level that lets them fire an extra magical attack on top of whatever their first attack was.

 

[Horwath]

Deafult cantrip for all arcane casters:

Elemental atunement:

This attack has 4 variations to use.

1; 1d12 acid,cold,electricity,fire or thunder damage, melee spell attack.

2; 1d10 acid,cold,electricity,fire or thunder damage, ranged spell attack(120ft).

3; 1d8 acid,cold,electricity,fire or thunder damage, 5ft burst around the caster.

4; 1d6 acid,cold,electricity,fire or thunder damage, ranged area spell attack(5ft burst), range 60ft.

increase number of damage dice at lvl5,11,17.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think it would work, but I don't see much benefit in reinventing the wheel. Maybe it would help multiclassed characters, or non-casters' spellcaster subclasses.

Also, I don't really like every spellcaster to be a spambot of magical attacks, and 5e already allows attack cantrips to all of them, so giving it them for free it's even worse for my tastes.

 

[Ganymede81]

Deafult cantrip for all arcane casters:

Elemental atunement:

This is something I've thought of before, and I do like the idea (maybe not the integrated normalization of the burst cantrips, though).

5e already allows attack cantrips to all of them, so giving it them for free it's even worse for my tastes.

It wouldn't be for free. Your remaining cantrips would be reduced by one.

 

[Blue]

1. I'd rather keep more differentiation between casting and weapons. So "it's absolutely like wielding a weapon, including the ways that it gets buffed over the levels, but it's ma-a-a-a-gic." doesn't cut it.

2. I'd rather not allow free choice of element each time so you can always avoid resistances and/or target vulnerabilities. Right now you make a choice when you pick your cantrip and if you want more than element, you use up more than one of your cantrips known. That seems reasonable.

3. It's boring. Many cantrips have interesting riders on them. Vicious Mockery, the lowest damaging cantrip, sees regular use because of what else it does.

4. Growing out of #3, there's no differentiation between classes, they all have the same feel. Right now that's done through what cantrips are on the spell list.

 

[Ganymede81]

A list of four things.

Most of those issues are addressed in implementation. Remember, this is just a random idea, not a fully-implemented ruleset.

Interesting riders would come on a class-by-class basis. Some magical classes might be able to fire more blasts, others might be able to knock their foes over with their blasts, others might be able to ricochet their blasts to a secondary target, while still others might be able to muddle their target's mind on a hit.

Likewise, damage types would also be done on a class-by-class basis. While wizards and sorcerers would have access to fire, lightning, and cold damage, clerics might have access to radiant, necrotic, and thunder damage, warlocks might have access to force damage, and bards might have access to psychic damage. If you don't like the fact that a particular class has access to several damage types, I could easily imagine limiting a PC to selecting one of the available damage types as opposed to having the ability to switch freely.

 

[mellored]

3. It's boring. Many cantrips have interesting riders on them. Vicious Mockery, the lowest damaging cantrip, sees regular use because of what else it does.

4. Growing out of #3, there's no differentiation between classes, they all have the same feel. Right now that's done through what cantrips are on the spell list.

Agreed.

However, i could see the differentiation being added by the (sub)class.

i.e.
Arcane Blast: 1d4 damage, of <pick element>

Lore Bard: If you hit, the creature has disadvantage on their next attack.
Blade Bard: When you make a melee attack, you can also use arcane blast.
Light Cleric: The creature shines and cannot hide for a turn.
Life Cleric: One creature regains hit points equal to half the damage you deal.
Death Cleric: Reduce the creatures maximum HP.
Dragon Sorcerer: A 15' cone.
Shadow Sorcerer: The target cannot see you for a turn.
Evoker: 5' radius blast.
Diviner: You have advantage.
Warlock: Increase damage to d10.
etc...


Granted, it would take a large rewrite. So probably not good for 5e.

 

[Satyrn]

Most of those issues are addressed in implementation. Remember, this is just a random idea, not a fully-implemented ruleset.

Interesting riders would come on a class-by-class basis. Some magical classes might be able to fire more blasts, others might be able to knock their foes over with their blasts, others might be able to ricochet their blasts to a secondary target, while still others might be able to muddle their target's mind on a hit.

Likewise, damage types would also be done on a class-by-class basis. While wizards and sorcerers would have access to fire, lightning, and cold damage, clerics might have access to radiant, necrotic, and thunder damage, warlocks might have access to force damage, and bards might have access to psychic damage. If you don't like the fact that a particular class has access to several damage types, I could easily imagine limiting a PC to selecting one of the available damage types as opposed to having the ability to switch freely.

All of that sounds like too much to be instead of an attack.