D&D 5E Feather Fall hanger on

[Guest 6801328]

You might not consider it a "nerf at all" to limit it to just your view of "as it was intended" but others can obviously have different views. that is fine.

Yeah I think I made it pretty clear that this is an opinion...a "ruling"...and is just one way to play.

But let me ask a question from the positive gain side.

What is it that you see as the positive gains for your games from adding this acrobatics fail chance to feather fall?

What kinds of scenes do you see running now that you would think would be better if there was a chance for feather fall to not save the character when it would right now as written?

Just what positives fun things do you expect this ruling will add that make up for the seeming restriction on player options that "if you wait below abc you may fail on a bad roll"?

What do you see as the upside from this new mechanic being added to feather fall?

You mean other than a chance to kill off the characters of power-gaming rules lawyers? Is it possible to have more fun than that while fully clothed?

I kid.

(By the way, I don't see it as "a new mechanic added to feather fall". I see it as "giving the player a chance to use the spell in new, unintended manner, rather than just saying 'no'.")

Some serious answers:

1) The maneuver described is both more difficult than, and has a mechanical benefit over, the default application. Therefore it should be harder to pull off. Long range archery is more challenging than short range. Jumping over big chasms is more challenging than jumping over narrow ones. Sure, "RAW" is on your side here, but RAW can't cover ever conceivable scenario, and personally I'm glad they didn't add another sentence or two being more specific in this case. (I like the example above, about holding an Action until the guard "looks the other way".)

2) Purely as a matter of aesthetics, the HALO thing is more 'cinematic' than I typically appreciate in my games. Sure, superheroes can do it, but I prefer games where the heroes are normal people achieving great things, not superheroes. (Again, just personal preference there.)

3) Excitement. Think about action/adventure movies you like: how much less fun would they be if the challenges were not challenges? Instead of "Grab...my....hand....!!!!" it became, "Hey, grab my hand I'll pull you up." Timing your HALO landing is an opportunity for some risk/reward, and I think it's more fun to add some dramatic tension, as well as give players a decision with consequences.

Is that enough reasons?

As for the difficulty of what you are describing, I'm not a HALO jumper but I looked it up: they typically open at around 600 meters. Bear in mind that HALO jumpers are trained. Again, one of my issues is that Wizards are supposed to be the bookish types, not paratroopers.

But I'll tell you what: if you're ever at my table and want to trigger your Feather Fall at 600 meters, I won't make you roll, even if your Wizard isn't trained. Fair?

I can't help but also think about the original Archimonde fight in World of Warcraft, circa 2007/2008. For the uninitiated, Archimonde has an ability which pops everybody high in the air, and you have to use an item to essentially Feather Fall back down. The tricky part is that if you use it too high you spend too long floating down, when what you want to do is get back into the fight as quickly as possible. So ideally you want to use it just before you hit the ground. Sound familiar?

Ok, I was in a competitive guild back then so we were mostly pretty strong players (except me, really...fortunately I was a rogue and could survive larger falls) and we did this over and over and over again, every week. And the falling speeds were not actually very fast; nowhere near realistic velocities. In the first few weeks it was mass carnage; we were like lemmings. But even after we had the fight dialed, STILL people would sometimes crater because they would try to cut it too close.

It's hard.

 

[Onussen]

Off the top of my head, I'd say that the spell grants the relative mass of a feather rather than actively applies buoyancy. So someone not under the effects of the spell would fall at the normal rate, pulling the featherfalled person with them. The hanger -on would take normal falling damage, the person under the effect of featherfall would still take no damage from the fall.

Mass has nothing to do with it. Ask Galileo.

On a related note, when I cast feather fall I'm not foolish enough to cast it as soon as I fall when it's a known, long fall. I the drop is more than 600 feet then the spell will end and I'll resume falling, and my slow fall exposes me to missile fire from my enemies for longer. Instead, I HALO to near the ground (between 10 and 60 feet) and only then do I cast feather fall, which instantaneously and safely changes my rate of descent from terminal velocity to 60 feet per round. I land sooner and safer.

Such a sudden rapid deceleration can be, should be, very unpleasant. I would not use the term safely at all. Especially since nothing in the spell description states, or even implies a safe deceleration.

The feather faller descends at a rate of 60' per round, or 1 foot/second even if it is grappled. Grappling does not negate the Feather Fall. However, the grappler's situation, it would be similar to a character clinging to the ledge of a cliff, or dangling on the end of a rope. Does the grappler have the strength to hang on when gravity is tugging away at said grappler normally? Bearing in mind that whatever the grappler is clinging to might rip or break. I would require a strength test at the very least, after a successful grapple. And perhaps even an opposed test.

Of course, the grappler will not accelerate at 32 feet/second squared as long as it can hang on. It will fall at the same rate as the feather faller. If it has fallen far enough --and thus accelerated to a nice velocity-- it may "stretch" the feather faller a bit depending upon when and where the grapple occurs. Or even rip off a limb if it is falling fast enough when it grapples.

It, the grappler could also be in for a nasty bit of deceleration too if it 'landed' on the feather faller. Hmmm, probably, both parties would not fare well in such a collision.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Mass has nothing to do with it. Ask Galileo.

I hate to be pedantic* but mass has a lot to do with it. Surface area and shape determine the force of the air resistance and F = ma so the actual upward acceleration...counteracting the downward acceleration due to gravity...is a function of that force and the mass of the object.

*Confession: sometimes I actually love being pedantic.

The feather faller descends at a rate of 60' per round, or 1 foot/second even if it is grappled.

And to further compound my pedantry, 60' per round is 10 feet/second.

 

[Onussen]

Uhm, Liberal Arts Major? I'm going to believe all of my lying physics professors, and there have been quite a few, instead of you. No offense.

I use 1 round is one minute. It's an old school thing.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Uhm, Liberal Arts Major? I'm going to believe all of my lying physics professors, and there have been quite a few, instead of you. No offense.

To quote Corporal Hicks from Aliens, "None taken."

I think I'll sit back and let others chime in on this one.

/popcorn

 

[5ekyu]

Elfcrusher asked: Is that enough reasons?

It sure is if thats as many as you choose to provide.

They give me the basis of understanding i wanted.

See, i was, as i think others were, confused about what made feather fall the spell chosen for the "precision fail check" esp given the tisk. So i figured somewhere there would be some reason why hitting a particular 5' spot with this use of this spell would be requiring a check when others dont (as far as we know.)

So when i look at your choice to declare a roll required to FF in the last 5' before hitting the ground i thought seeing your benefits gained would clear that up.

But what the list you chose to provide shows is actually highlighting how equally it should apply to casting a fireball so that it goes off in a given 5'square some distance downfielf so it doesnt burn you allies.

1 usually it is done to get as many enemies as posdible while sparing others - an advantage over less "precise" applications.

2 obviously that whole foreball thing is more into the super heroic vs normal guy than 5'control over festher fall is.

3 obviously, there is more excitement drama in "danger close" artillery/bombing ehere hitting enemies near to allies has risk of hitting your allies 5' away from the expected blast radius.

At your table i would not ask you for GM fiat in my favor. I would simply ask how far above the ground you would consider minimum safe distance for me popping FF and not hitting the ground with no check involved AND ask that you apply that exact same distance to AOE spell target placement.

Seems fair thai if i cannot choose to time and target my FF to when i am say 20' to the ground without getting the excitement of a chance of fail and thud the same should apply to getting a fireballs origin point so that its blast location is not having a chance of catching someone say 35' from where i applied it.

I mean, why deprive the fireball throwers of that excitement too? Excitement we have seen in practically every movie or book where danger close aoe was used.

I would not dream of asking to be singled out just tteated consistently.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app

 

[Guest 6801328]

I mean, why deprive the fireball throwers of that excitement too? Excitement we have seen in practically every movie or book where danger close aoe was used.

I'm glad you asked. When applying a circular effect to a grid, I've been known to flip a coin (well, roll odds/evens) for each "edge case" grid cell to determine if it ends up inside the radius. If the Wizard player asks, "Will that person be inside the radius?" I say, "I don't know. You tell me where you cast the spell then we'll find out."

EDIT: In other words, I let them target a spell with pretty high precision...after all the spell descriptions are pretty explicit about that. "Pick a spot..." etc. But the Wizard's ability to judge what is, and what is not, exactly 15' from that spot is much less precise.

 

[5ekyu]

Elfcrusher said "
(By the way, I don't see it as "a new mechanic added to feather fall". I see it as "giving the player a chance to use the spell in new, unintended manner, rather than just saying 'no'.")"

Go it.

That is a difference between us...

because my default rule for most decisions is "say yes unless there is a complelling reason to say no" and especially so when it comes to players trying new stuff...

it comes across to me as "I see it as "giving the player a chance to fail (and possibly die from failing) to use the spell in new, unintended manner, rather than just saying 'yes'."

That's part of the reason why i would not feel inclined at all to add some new die roll for 5' worth of finesse at where FF takes effect given i do not require it for 5' placement of much more game affecting spells like fireball.

BTW out of curiosity, are there any other spells you feel the casters are no trained in the ins and outs the uses of in addition to feather fall?

 

[Guest 6801328]

BTW out of curiosity, are there any other spells you feel the casters are no trained in the ins and outs the uses of in addition to feather fall?

Please don't make assumptions about what I think and feel.

Maybe Wizards are highly trained in the ins and outs of the uses of Feather Fall. "Remember, class, don't get fancy with timing your Feather Fall because it's much, much harder than gamers on the Internet would have you think."

But if I were to rephrase your question more respectfully, my answer would be: It would depend on what non-canonical uses players come up with. But it's nothing I plan in advance.

 

[5ekyu]

Please don't make assumptions about what I think and feel.

Maybe Wizards are highly trained in the ins and outs of the uses of Feather Fall. "Remember, class, don't get fancy with timing your Feather Fall because it's much, much harder than gamers on the Internet would have you think."

But if I were to rephrase your question more respectfully, my answer would be: It would depend on what non-canonical uses players come up with. But it's nothing I plan in advance.

uh ok so are you saying you picking when/where to cast feather fall (such as in "cast feather fall when i am 10' off the ground") that you find either "not part of the ins and outs of feather fall" or non-canonical in some way but where you find hitting a particular 5' square as the center of a fireball is?

For me i cannot think of a case where the when'where cast and placement as not a part of the learning of a spell nor that any given when\where placement choice to the 5' square degree of difficulty was seen as non-canonical.

I can get that you dont want to plan ahead but out of curiosity how did you handle the last "i want my fireball to go off centered in this 5' square"? Did you use acrobatics as well or some other skill check?