When Fantasy meets Medieval Europe

[Celebrim]

[MENTION=6925649]Thomas Bowman[/MENTION]: I should warn you that an active Satanic presence is just as sensitive of a topic as a person representing themselves as God. It's generally not considered a healthy topic to show interest in, and that fear of Satan borders on giving glory to him and results in severe error (such as the real world 'witch panic'), to say nothing of the problem of appearing dualist if you set him up as 'the evil god'. But, I'm presuming also that it's likely that you've given some thought to this problem as well.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

[MENTION=6925649]Thomas Bowman[/MENTION]: I should warn you that an active Satanic presence is just as sensitive of a topic as a person representing themselves as God. It's generally not considered a healthy topic to show interest in, and that fear of Satan borders on giving glory to him and results in severe error (such as the real world 'witch panic'), to say nothing of the problem of appearing dualist if you set him up as 'the evil god'. But, I'm presuming also that it's likely that you've given some thought to this problem as well.

Well you need something to explain evil clerics casting spells. Satan is just something that grants clerical magic to evil clerics, also some zealots, inquisitors persecuting heretics did evil acts, now would a good God let evil clerics do evil in the name of God? Power corrupts and the clergy isn't any different from anyone else. So what happens if for instance you have a Catholic priest that rises high in the Church hierarchy, and he becomes corrupt persecuting various individuals simply because he sees them as a threat to his power base? What happens to the priest that tortures certain people in order to get him to confess to being a witch, and when he does, he burns him at the stake, if he casts a cleric spell, who grants him that spell? Would a good God grant an evil priest his spell? I think not, that is why you need a force of evil to grant the spells of evil clerics so they can be a challenge to player characters.

I really don't expect God to be used for much other than granting spells to clerics, having God step in and save the adventurers really undermines the challenge of the game, as God can do anything. Satan does the same thing for evil clerics, but he and his minions also take a more active role, and this is basically a problem for player characters to solve. It is the player's problem to defeat Satan and to slay demons. Sometimes their is an artifact such as the Ark of the Covenant, or perhaps the Holy Grail, that the player characters must find in order to defeat Satan and his minions. If the players do their part, then God acts, but the players need to do their part to make that happen.

Thematically Satan exists in order for their to be free will to choose between good and evil. If God were to smite all evil, he would also eliminate free will to choose between good and evil. God could destroy Satan but he does not because to do so would also destroy free will, and without free will, the idea of sin would be meaningless. That is the philosophic underpinnings as to why Satan is allowed to exist.

Polytheistic religions don't have the same problem explaining the existence of evil as do Monotheistic religions. Multiple gods pursuing their own agendas often has a lot of evil effects for mortals, but put one God in charge of it all and if it is a good God, you have the problem of explaining why evil exists. In the Christian religion that force of evil is Satan or the Devil, its kind of a necessity that such a being exists in a monotheistic world.

 

[Lylandra]

I suppose. If you aren't a member of those "various faiths" I'm not sure your opinion as to what is offensive really counts.

Personally, as a member of those "various faiths", the big problem with God in an RPG setting is that it puts the GM in the position of having to speak for God. So long as you avoid having to be the definitive "Word of God" within your setting and are otherwise respectful to the concept of God, you probably won't offend people of "various faiths".

Tolkien managed to dance around this problem by having an analogous figure to God in his setting, but which operated under no traditional names for God. That gives his setting some distance from the real world even if it is at some level ostensibly set in the real world.

First, I said nothing about "offensive" when I meant "heated debates". I can see people get offended on such notions, but I really meant debates on how the divine system works in a quasi-historical fantasy setting if you try to incorporate some theological aspects like omnipotency or "being The One God" while having several other pagan gods who are not the same besides that deity.

Second, I'm no atheist either.

That being said, you are right that "speaking for god" is another problematic aspect and also that using a different creation myth, like Tolkien did in his Akallabeth, gets you easily out of the uncanny valley.

As for the existence of magic. Clerics cast spells, but they are part of the Church hierarchy, this is before the Reformation, so their are Catholics, and Orthodox Churches, a small percentage of Jews, and of course Muslims, but technically they all worship the same God, and the same God grants them their spells. God also grants Druids their spells, since this God is a God of Everything. There are pagan deities as well that grant spells to their followers, but their numbers are dwindling. Satan has a number of followers as well, he grants spells to his worshippers, a lot of people are accused of being Satan worshippers who actually aren't, so their number is actually magnified above that which actually exists. People fight wars over how they believe God wants to be worshipped, but God doesn't take sides in these disputes. Usually divine intervention involves sending an angel rather than God making a direct appearance himself. Sometimes the Devil has minions that pose as angels as well, and Satan makes more direct appearances himself, but mostly it is a demon or a lesser devil that makes the intervention.

There is where my problem lies. What about these pagan deities? Are they gods? And if yes, how do they relate to the abrahamic "one god of all"? If yes, how does this work with a "God is everything" approach?

Paganism and Polytheism existed way before any abrahamic faith. If these gods are real, if they do grant powers, and if they are different entities than "God" then how and why would God come into existence? How and why would he suddenly be worshipped?

Also, the way you described God in your first iteration is pretty neutral. Your God isn't necessarily "good", as he is a distant "being of everything" hence no real need for an evil antithesis, just to have someone grant evil spells. Again, be careful with your theological construct as you're venturing into the uncanny valley once more.
The question "If God exists they why is there evil in this world?" is basically old as dirt and it is one of the fundamental theological questions. I don't know if "because Satan" is the best answer in this case (as in: using it in an RPG setting), unless you de-divinify or caricaturize your God (like some graphic novels did).

Try to make a clear cut between your setting cosmology&pantheon, the character's beliefs and whatever real-world faiths' stances are. The first one should be internally consistent. And could be as easy as an undefined "No one knows".

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Lets think of God as a living incarnation of all good and neutral alignments and Satan gets all the evil ones. Pagan deities are more limited, they have specific portfolios, and their following is limited to certain geographic regions where people still worship them. In the 1100s for example their are still people who worship the Norse deities for example. There could be elves worshipping elven deities or other nature deities. The old Roman and Greek gods are still around, they are dormant and require something significant to wake them up. The most powerful of the Roman/Greek deities are Mars/Venus and Venus/Aphrodite, they have their own planets specifically Mars and Venus, unlike our own Solar System, these planets are habitable and have humans living on them that still worship them. Monotheism has yet to make major inroads on these planets. Certain rituals may draw the attention of these two Roman deities, they are quite powerful on their respective planets and are not by any means dormant, unlike the rest of their pantheon.

Lets me say this both Mars and Venus the gods invest a significant proportion of their divine powers just to keep their respective planets habitable, that power they have left over after doing this they grant to clerics, druids, paladins etc. Venus is neutral with good tendencies and Mars is neutral with evil tendencies, their portfolios of love and war give them their respective good and evil tendencies. Mars loves a good war, and as their are plenty of wars on Earth, he tends to be very interested in them, and each war fought unbeknownst to the participants gives Mars power. Mars is always seeking ways to fan the flames of war on Earth, and his own planet is pretty chaotic and war torn as well.

Venus is fueled by love and romance, active worship of this goddess, is not out in the open, and of course people don't realize they are giving power to a deity that exists. Venus just loves to tempt Catholic Priests, monks and nuns into illicit love affairs. She doesn't care about social norms or other religions' traditions and rules for their clergy, that is a human thing, Venus doesn't think in such terms. Venus is always at work starting all sorts of romantic relationships whether licit or illicit, inside or outside of marriage, she is not the goddess of marriage after all, that is someone else.

Sub-Saharan Africa has a number of pagan deities that are still actively worshipped, as Christian and Muslim missionaries have yet to convert them. India has Hinduism, which has many gods, they are active. There is a China and Japan, they have their own traditions and belief systems, those gods or whatever are active there and a source of power. Polynesians in the Pacific, which are yet to be discovered by the Europeans, have their gods as well.

 

[Yunru]

Or you could just not use an abrihamic religion? Not like Paganism, Norse mythology, etc. didn't exist.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Or you could just not use an abrihamic religion? Not like Paganism, Norse mythology, etc. didn't exist.

Why should I do that?
1) D&D is based on Medieval folklore and fairy tales.
2) D&D has clerics and druids that get their spells from deities.
3) The technology of D&D is Medieval, not Ancient as in Ancient Rome and earlier which was the time of those pagan deities.
4) In 1100 AD, In Europe, the Ancient Gods are in decline or a thing of the past, the new religion is Christianity and Islam, but I am not bringing up Jesus. Both religions worship one God, what they believe about that God is different, but I am not getting into that. What is true is that the pagan gods of Europe belong more in the classical period and earlier, the days of the Roman Empire.

5) If I'm going to base this campaign world on history and have recognizable place names and cultures, then I have to use Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. I don't have to get into the specifics, all I need to do is explain how the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim clerics get their spells from. They believe in different things about God and everything, but the one factor they have in common is a belief in a single God, so I'm going with that. This God does not typically make personal appearances, Jesus is not around in this time period and neither is Mohammad or Moses. So I don't have to involve them. All I really require here is a mechanism for monotheistic clerics to get their spells, their agendas are their own. So I have a force for good and a force for evil, that evil force is Satan, all three religions have a Satan or something like him. I don't care about the minutia of each religion or what drives them to go to war with each other, such as in the Crusades, it is a conflict between humans, not between gods or a God with himself.

 

[Yunru]

Why should I do that?
1) D&D is based on Medieval folklore and fairy tales.
2) D&D has clerics and druids that get their spells from deities.
3) The technology of D&D is Medieval, not Ancient as in Ancient Rome and earlier which was the time of those pagan deities.
4) In 1100 AD, In Europe, the Ancient Gods are in decline or a thing of the past, the new religion is Christianity and Islam, but I am not bringing up Jesus. Both religions worship one God, what they believe about that God is different, but I am not getting into that. What is true is that the pagan gods of Europe belong more in the classical period and earlier, the days of the Roman Empire and earlier.

5) If I'm going to base this campaign world on history and have recognizable place names and cultures, then I have to use Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. I don't have to get into the specifics, all I need to do is explain how the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim clerics get their spells from. They believe in different things about God and everything, but the one factor they have in common is a belief in a single God, so I'm going with that. This God does not typically make personal appearances, Jesus is not around in this time period and neither is Mohammad or Moses. So I don't have to involve them. All I really require here is a mechanism for monotheistic clerics to get their spells, their agendas are their own. So I have a force for good and a force for evil, that evil force is Satan, all three religions have a Satan or something like him. I don't care about the minutia of each religion or what drives them to go to war with each other, such as in the Crusades, it is a conflict between humans, not between gods or a God with himself.

Because it's a hot-button topic?
One easily avoidable by just having Rome not convert.

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Because it's a hot-button topic?
One easily avoidable by just having Rome not convert.

Creating this alternate history would create a lot of extra work for me.

Do you want me to give the Roman Empire 600 extra years of history? This would be a different world than Feudal Europe. History would be a lot different without Christianity. Do you want the Roman Empire to still exist in what would have been 1100 AD? Without Christianity, there would not be an 1100 AD, all the common references would be gone, the countries would be different, with lots of Butterfly effects. I would have a lot of writing to do to fill in 600 years of history that never was. There is a thread called d20 Pirates, it posits such a world, Europe is dominated by something called the Northern Empire, and my map with the political boundaries would be useless if I go with such a radical departure. There are other roleplaying games that take place in a monotheistic World, and no one makes any bones that actual churches and religions are represented.

 

[Yunru]

No reason everything else can't be the same. Not like you can't just replace one pantheon with another and still have the same outcomes.

Plus the monotheistic religions are very restrictive, which is cool if you're set on the "one god" thing, but multitheistic religions are far easier to associate with each other, allowing multiple religions even when one's dominant (just look at greeks and romans).

 

[Thomas Bowman]

Pagan religions aren't Medieval. We don't really have a historic example of a bunch of pagan nations existing in a Medieval Europe. Your grafting something that more properly belongs in Ancient times into a Medieval setting. the Church was a very powerful organization in Europe in 1100 AD. You know Christianity is an international religion, what existed before that was a bunch of National religions, each nation had its own set of gods. Judaism was a national religion Christianity crossed national borders, and Islam followed its example. Without Christianity and Islam, there could be no Church. The Roman Pantheon would have died with the Empire, unless you want that Empire to still be around, in which case there would be no knights in shining armor, no feudalism, there would be slaves, and arenas and centurions and all that stuff.