When Fantasy meets Medieval Europe

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Lylandra

Adventurer
There is a god and their is God. God with a capital 'G' is all powerful, a god with a lower case 'g' is not, I tend to make a distinction between the two. Satan can be thought of as an "evil god" in the pagan sense, but he is not God in the Biblical sense. Other pagan deities, such as Mars and Venus, are gods with a lower case 'g', they are powerful compared to us, within the context of the game universe, but they are not all powerful. Now just to remind you, this is in the game universe I'm creating, I don't want to get into an argument with a priest about theology. Technically Satan is a devil not a god, but he has powers just like any of a number of pagan gods who are not God, it is a difference without a distinction.

But you might get into a theological argument with anyone if you try to "define" God in a way that's not clearly distinct from what RL people believe is God OR a faithful (haha, pun intended) representation that could withstand at least a basic theological debate. In your scenario, I'm afraid it doesn't.

Unless you define that your "God" is an entity that represents what your 1100 AD people believed God and Satan and Pagan/Elven Deities to be. Now, that could make an interesting setting premise if you continue this thought.

Unlike using the "real 1100 AD" as basis and simply strap-on D&D tropes, you could prefer to take the magic, creatures, beliefs, myths etc. people of 1100 AD *believed in* and make them real in their world. So there would be trolls in Finland, a child-eating witch in the HRE, satyrs and nymphs in Byzantine, faeries everywhere and the blood of dragons could work miracles.

This way you'd also avoid dragging RL theology into your setting...
 

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Jhaelen

First Post
Well, historically, magic and spell-casting doesn't really mesh with faith in the Christian God. According to the Bible it's just witch-craft - the Devil's domain. It's one of many reasons why I have trouble to think of D&D as a good basis for a medieval setting that is supposed to be mostly historically accurate.

In Ars Magica that's one of the main reasons why the Church is wary of Magi. Some rare beings have 'True Faith' which allows them to pray for Miracles, which is completely different from using magic. First, there's no guarantee anything will happen, and second the actual effect of the Miracles isn't under the control of the supplicant.
Pagan gods are 'just' considered powerful faerie beings in this system, btw. Which makes sense since faeries draw their power from (re-)creating tales and legends told by humanity. Devil worshippers are granted powers by Demons in exchange for their souls. These 'gifts' are invariably tainted and granted in the hope of leading to sinful behavior and causing others to commit sins. In fact, the most powerful abilities of Demons in Ars Magica are their 'Psychomachia' which allow them to cause humans to experience sinful emotions. (It's important to note that since the victims of Psychomachia aren't acting out of their own free will, this doesn't actually endanger their souls directly. The idea is to make them 'get used' to sinful behavior and make them commit sins consciously at some future point.)

I get that you don't care about historical accuracy as much and mostly want to benefit from a well-defined setting and still use D&D mostly unchanged, but it's tricky to explain why the changes you are making to the setting's reality don't completely change its nature. Even if you don't care about using a different RPG system, which I completely understand, it can be beneficial to read about different ideas on how to solve these conflicts in ways that make sense.
 

Thomas Bowman

First Post
Well, historically, magic and spell-casting doesn't really mesh with faith in the Christian God. According to the Bible it's just witch-craft - the Devil's domain. It's one of many reasons why I have trouble to think of D&D as a good basis for a medieval setting that is supposed to be mostly historically accurate.

In Ars Magica that's one of the main reasons why the Church is wary of Magi. Some rare beings have 'True Faith' which allows them to pray for Miracles, which is completely different from using magic. First, there's no guarantee anything will happen, and second the actual effect of the Miracles isn't under the control of the supplicant.
Pagan gods are 'just' considered powerful faerie beings in this system, btw. Which makes sense since faeries draw their power from (re-)creating tales and legends told by humanity. Devil worshippers are granted powers by Demons in exchange for their souls. These 'gifts' are invariably tainted and granted in the hope of leading to sinful behavior and causing others to commit sins. In fact, the most powerful abilities of Demons in Ars Magica are their 'Psychomachia' which allow them to cause humans to experience sinful emotions. (It's important to note that since the victims of Psychomachia aren't acting out of their own free will, this doesn't actually endanger their souls directly. The idea is to make them 'get used' to sinful behavior and make them commit sins consciously at some future point.)

I get that you don't care about historical accuracy as much and mostly want to benefit from a well-defined setting and still use D&D mostly unchanged, but it's tricky to explain why the changes you are making to the setting's reality don't completely change its nature. Even if you don't care about using a different RPG system, which I completely understand, it can be beneficial to read about different ideas on how to solve these conflicts in ways that make sense.

I was at an RPG and Comic book store called "Gamers Gambit" yesterday, and I saw Ars Magica in the shelf, I picked it up and looked though it, a lot of interesting stuff in there, but I wasn't ready to make an investment in it yet. I would like to see what would happen if I adapted a historical setting to Dungeons & Dragons, either 3.5 edition or 5th edition, I haven't decided yet, I am more familiar with 3.5 but I have both. I am working on a map, a more clearer image than the one I showed you of Europe. Basically I'm replacing every hex at twice the resolution and renumbering and relabeling each hex. The numbers are somewhat indistinct when you look at the hexes close. I am almost finished with hex replacement and will post that map when I'm done, this will be a map without labels, just the terrain hexes, and I will overlay the labels and city locations and so forth. Once that map is complete, I intend to make encounter tables for each hex type.

For the record, I always thought medieval people were a little nuts about religion for instance when I google "Medieval Paintings" I get this:
4302010_13548_4.jpg

Monreale_BW_2012-10-09_09-52-40.jpg
Monk_sneaking_a_drink.jpg
6075692783_c027c5ae69_b.jpg

These are the first four images I got, medieval people lived and breathed religion, when ever a medieval artist picked up a paint brush and wanted to paint something, it usually was of a subject having something to do with religion, which is not usually the subject of what you'd find in a fantasy novel. Most fantasies graft a pagan religion, with a bunch of made up gods I never heard of, with a pseudo-medieval setting with medieval weapons. Most of the elements of the D&D game were inspired by myth that occurred during the middle ages, such as King Arthur and his knights of the Round Table. When people got more secular, and wanted to avoid offending people by portraying real world religions, they started grafting pagan deities in place of God and the Church into their setting to explain divine powers and clerical spells.

The thing about the real middle ages that I find interesting is that people believed in witches enough to burn people at the stake whom they accused of practicing witchcraft, but in their lives they never actually experienced magic themselves, they were quick to point their fingers at someone and call them a witch, but somehow, they were always brave enough to round up said witches and burn them at the stake without fear of reprisals by the so called "witches" themselves, so they believed at a certain level that those they accused were not actually witches, they just wanted an excuse the gullible peasants would accept so they could burn someone at the stake and take their property which they very much wanted, and get the Church's sanction for doing so, after maybe making a generous contribution to the Church and some Church official to buy their support.

I think there were two kinds of people, those who believed and those who went along with that belief because the Church was a source of political power, it was bigger than any single kingdom in Europe, so Kings had to tread carefully here, lest they be overthrown for offending too many lay people who believed in the Church and who thought the ruling monarch was a bit of a heretic. Others waiting in the wings who wanted to be king, would be quick to point fingers so they could gain the church's support and ursurp the throne.

The thing is, most people who lived in the middle ages were very religious, those who were not went through the motions so they would not be accused of heresy or witchcraft, and so stay safe from the Inquisition. According to the Inquisition, witches were all over the place, every little thing that could not be explained could be attributed to witchcraft. People in the church derived their power from it, the more corrupt ones defending their power base could order executions, if they could justify it on the pasis of someone practicing witchcraft, so you see the Middle Ages were a little crazy with witch hunts and people protecting their power.

I ask they question is what would be different if Magic were actually real? Not just any magic, but D&D magic? The World would have to accommodate itself to this fact and change their behavior accordingly, here magic is not just hearsay and an excuse for a witch trial. If their are real witches, they will not be burned so easily, especially if people were afraid of being turned into toads and actually were!

Basically, I am keeping to the flow of history, the Kings and Queens we know from the history books are in charge when we are talking about places on the Map of Europe, and the Mediterranean World, that means the three big religions are Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. There are a few pagans left, and to some degree the World is in transition though in Europe it is mostly converted to Christianity.

If I translate these beliefs into Game reality that makes God an overwhelming power in this world, but Medieval history does not contain a lot of acts of God, mostly just humans fighting each other trying to gain power at one another's expense, there has been plagues, that many have attributed to sinfulness and God's wrath, and Invasion by the Mongols and so forth. Insert D&D magic and monsters into this mix and it changes things somewhat. The Church and the Kingdoms have to accommodate this some how. That priests cast spells is accepted as semi-routine. No one bats an eye when a priest lays his hands one someone and heals their wounds, that is just a part of everyday life, not the "big deal" it would be in the actual Middle Ages! Wizards and Sorcerers cast spells and craft magic items, I have to alter this world minimally so society accepts this and does not go bat crazy every time some mage casts a spell. W

itch hunts are usually reserved for evil witches, and are usually led by other spell casters, and is truly a matter of safety and protection. Spell casters that go about their business and don't threaten the community are usually left alone. Wizards are out in the open, just as D&D suggests, they don' hide or form secret societies usually unless they are really up to no good! If someone sees a dragon, and it does not burn down the village, it is not that big a deal. If elves and dwarves come to a village to buy stuff, people don't usually go nuts over that, Orcs maybe, but this is a part of everyday life, everything else is based on historical Europe. Northern Africa is much the same. Unexplored parts of the World can be very different from what we know them to be, hence the elves in the Americas, they have to live somewhere you know!

Real World religions cannot be excised easily without changing what remains into something unrecognizable, so Christianity remains, because as you can see from those paintings, that really is the backbone of Medieval Europe. Magic and monsters can be added, but the belief system has to stay, and that way I can use existing kings and queens and cities as a backdrop. If I got rid of the Big Three religions, I'd have to replace history going all the way back to the early Roman Empire, and I'd rather not do that.
 

Thomas Bowman

First Post
But you might get into a theological argument with anyone if you try to "define" God in a way that's not clearly distinct from what RL people believe is God OR a faithful (haha, pun intended) representation that could withstand at least a basic theological debate. In your scenario, I'm afraid it doesn't.

Unless you define that your "God" is an entity that represents what your 1100 AD people believed God and Satan and Pagan/Elven Deities to be. Now, that could make an interesting setting premise if you continue this thought.

Unlike using the "real 1100 AD" as basis and simply strap-on D&D tropes, you could prefer to take the magic, creatures, beliefs, myths etc. people of 1100 AD *believed in* and make them real in their world. So there would be trolls in Finland, a child-eating witch in the HRE, satyrs and nymphs in Byzantine, faeries everywhere and the blood of dragons could work miracles.

This way you'd also avoid dragging RL theology into your setting...
I intend to keep RL theology to a minimum. A cleric casting a healing spell using the power of God is not theology in my opinion. God takes a general hands off approach and people need to solve their own problems without relying so much on divine intervention, they main exception to this rule would be divine artifacts which may be quested for. Divine artifacts can sometimes invoke an act of god, these are rare however and not acquired easily. The World in general is governed through the acts of mortals, some mortals have magic, some have that magic through their devotion to their God. But in this setting player characters are the heroes, not gods! As far as the villains are concerned, Demons and devils take a more active role, angels are really rare, sometimes artifacts can summon them, but for the most part they are out of the picture. if their are demons to slay, then PCs slay them, not angels sent by God which would leave the PCs as bystanders.
 

Celebrim

Legend
[MENTION=6925649]Thomas Bowman[/MENTION]: All I'm try to say is that the problem with running a fantasy universe with close parallels to reality is that you are going to be inevitably perceived as not only making commentary on the fantasy reality, but making commentary on the real world as well.

I do understand that it is a game universe you are creating, but the closer you make that game universe to reality, the more likely you are to getting into an argument over whether your game reality accurately reflects the real reality.
 

Celebrim

Legend
The thing about the real middle ages that I find interesting is that people believed in witches enough to burn people at the stake whom they accused of practicing witchcraft...

Speaking of basing things on reality, but offending people because it isn't close enough to reality, that would be an example.

Anyone that is actually a historian of the middle ages knows that during the middle ages no one believed in witchcraft. They didn't burn witches at the stake during the middle ages. In fact, they were explicitly forbidden by the Catholic church of accusing people of being witches, and the official church position of all the doctors of the church to that point was that people could not perform magic and that belief in witches was pagan superstition.

The witch panic, like so many other things we think of as being part of the middle ages, only actually occurred after the middle ages were over. The burning of witches is something that was widespread in the early modern period.

While I'm on my soap box, the medieval people were fairly clean. They bathed at least monthly, and more often during the summer months when water was readily available. Most medieval towns still had public baths in the Roman model. People in Europe didn't stop bathing until the very end of the middle ages, when the fear of the black death closed down the public baths and left people afraid to bathe. The really dirty and stinky period of European history was the early modern period.

Likewise 'the Inquisition' wasn't a very big part of the Middle Ages either. The various inquisitions were mostly a function of again the Early Modern period, and in particular the political and social instability that occurred as a fallout of the Protestant Reformation. (The two big exceptions would be the campaigns against the Cathars and the Waldensians, but those were very different than what most people imagine as an 'inquisition', and were more like internal European crusades.) And most of inquisitions weren't actually a function of church government, but were run by secular powers. For example, the 'Spanish Inquisition' that everyone has heard of wasn't run by the Catholic Church. In fact, the Pope explicitly condemned it. It was run by secular authorities in Spain, who decided they were powerful enough to ignore the church. It wasn't founded until 1478, well after the middle ages had ended. And for that matter, the 'Spanish Inquisition' wasn't nearly as brutal and corrupt as the English inquisition and persecution of Catholics. Most of what everyone knows about the 'Spanish Inquisition' was a product of English propaganda.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
There is a god and their is God. God with a capital 'G' is all powerful, a god with a lower case 'g' is not, I tend to make a distinction between the two. Satan can be thought of as an "evil god" in the pagan sense, but he is not God in the Biblical sense. Other pagan deities, such as Mars and Venus, are gods with a lower case 'g', they are powerful compared to us, within the context of the game universe, but they are not all powerful. Now just to remind you, this is in the game universe I'm creating, I don't want to get into an argument with a priest about theology. Technically Satan is a devil not a god, but he has powers just like any of a number of pagan gods who are not God, it is a difference without a distinction.
Then couldn't you hypothetically switch the terminology to "angels" and/or "devils/demons/fiends" such that these intermediary figures feature more akin to lower case "gods" for the purposes of your world?

Likewise 'the Inquisition' wasn't a very big part of the Middle Ages either. The various inquisitions were mostly a function of again the Early Modern period, and in particular the political and social instability that occurred as a fallout of the Protestant Reformation. (The two big exceptions would be the campaigns against the Cathars and the Waldensians, but those were very different than what most people imagine as an 'inquisition', and were more like internal European crusades.) And most of inquisitions weren't actually a function of church government, but were run by secular powers. For example, the 'Spanish Inquisition' that everyone has heard of wasn't run by the Catholic Church. In fact, the Pope explicitly condemned it. It was run by secular authorities in Spain, who decided they were powerful enough to ignore the church. It wasn't founded until 1478, well after the middle ages had ended. And for that matter, the 'Spanish Inquisition' wasn't nearly as brutal and corrupt as the English inquisition and persecution of Catholics. Most of what everyone knows about the 'Spanish Inquisition' was a product of English propaganda.
Yeah, I was listening to a fascinating lecture in one conference that mentioned how most witchcraft trials occurred in the areas we think of as "Germany" and the "Holy Roman Empire" and not the Spanish Inquisition, which generally had more safeguards and legal procedures for protections for the people against such accusations.
 

Thomas Bowman

First Post
Then couldn't you hypothetically switch the terminology to "angels" and/or "devils/demons/fiends" such that these intermediary figures feature more akin to lower case "gods" for the purposes of your world?

Yeah, I was listening to a fascinating lecture in one conference that mentioned how most witchcraft trials occurred in the areas we think of as "Germany" and the "Holy Roman Empire" and not the Spanish Inquisition, which generally had more safeguards and legal procedures for protections for the people against such accusations.

The way I see it, the Devil is born out of the absence of good, he is everything God is not. God could destroy him, but if he did, he would also be destroying free will and the ability to choose between good and evil. So in my World, the Devil or Satan is a manifestation of people's freedom to choose evil.
 

Aldarc

Legend
The way I see it, the Devil is born out of the absence of good, he is everything God is not. God could destroy him, but if he did, he would also be destroying free will and the ability to choose between good and evil. So in my World, the Devil or Satan is a manifestation of people's freedom to choose evil.
Heavy flavors of Augustine of Hippo there.

You may also want to check out the Leaves of Chiaroscuro. It's a 3pp setting for Fate Core. But it builds off the idea of an Italian Renaissance where magic (and other fantastical creatures) exists.

But from both a history of religions perspective and conceptual history perspective, I have some problems with the core assumption that Roman Catholic Christianity would be an outcome in a world where essentially (D&D) magic exists. One armed with only a cursory knowledge of both Christian theology and D&D magic would likely spot the issue fairly quickly, namely the Resurrection. Just about everything about Medieval Christianity is predicated on a particular view of reality that D&D's magic does not support.
 

Celebrim

Legend
But from both a history of religions perspective and conceptual history perspective, I have some problems with the core assumption that Roman Catholic Christianity would be an outcome in a world where essentially (D&D) magic exists...

My fundamental problem is not that you couldn't do D&D in a very close pastiche of Medieval Europe. My fundamental problem is that you couldn't do a very close pastiche of Medieval Europe and also have D&D classes like cleric and wizard. Neither class captures in any fashion how the people of the middle ages perceived magic, and they perceived magic in that way precisely because things like clerics and wizards did not exist.

D&D spell-casting classes are increasingly self-referential tropes. They work as game elements. They can work as verisimilitude to narrative if you sand off the details. What they don't work as is simulations of anything but D&D, and pretty much as soon as you start doing this detailed world-building to create a pastiche Medieval Europe you've launched yourself into high simulation. And if you do that, it's only going to be internally consistent if you get rid of most D&D classes and come up with something that fits the setting more perfectly - theurgists, miracle workers, natural philosophers, goetists and magicians - none of whom are really going to regularly have access to the splashy sort of power associated with D&D spell-casters and none of whom are going to neatly separate themselves from occult or religious concerns.
 

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