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Mike Mearls Happy Fun Hour: The Warlord

Zardnaar

Legend
This has been going on for 10 years.

There is a reason for that the Warlord concept is a weak one and outside of the 4E system it doesn't make a lot of sense as a class. Doesn't help that it has a lot of gamist mechanics in order to "buy in" to make the class work mechanically. You take away the 4E mechanics and the class doesn't really look that viable hence they broke it into Bard and Fighter archetypes (valor+ BM).

I have been reading the old Battlesystem rules for example for leading troops into battle and there is nothing in there to imply that you need a warlord type class to do that. Basically anyone can do it (int+wis+cha mod + level= commander skill), the fighter was a bit better at it as you got a built in army for free and the "elite" (lvl 1) troops could act as officers. Its probably why a lot of warlord type abilities (helaer, inspiring leader, the martial dice one) are feats in 5E, let anyone do it.

The archer warlord from 4E is totally redundant now because 4E messed up archery making it exclusive in effect to the ranger (apart from basic attacks), ion 5E that would be at best a Bravura warlord with the archery style (assuming they get it like every other warrior in the game).

Since 5E shares a lot of class abilities including half casters and 1/3rd casters even creating new Warlord only give you 4 perhaps strong enough to stand own their own archetypes and that is kind of pushing it, there is a reason we do not have a 1/3rd cleric/fighter type class (we have the Paladin). A warlord with 1/3rd cleric could help though in order to have outright magical abilities and it could be the WL equivalent of the life cleric.

My suggestion would be to not worry about things like gamist mechanic etc and just include them on any potential warlord build perhaps filtered through 5E mechanics such as granting second winds to others, technically its martial healing but its already in the game on the fighter just like bits of the WL are on Valor Bards, BM fighters, PDK and the Mastermind Rogue.

A Battle Captain at least makes more sense than some ideas that still see print like Gunslingers for example if you are using firearms why not just build a fighter who uses them (champion + feats in 5E, weapons specialist in 2E, feats in 3E). I would not try and create 10 warlords to fill some silly number Mearls came up with. Its easier with other classes I suppose due to things like kits in 2E some of which are better as back grounds anyway.
 

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Hussar

Legend
Good grief.

Look, as a niche, there is, at this moment, no actual non-caster support class in 5e D&D. None. Now, casters? We've got at least three (bard, cleric and druid) caster support classes. Two of those, druid and cleric, are effectively the same thing in the game world - one's a bit broader and the other is just a nature priest. The only thing that distinguishes a druid from a cleric is shape-shift, a purely mechanical difference. So, ten years into this conversation, are we STILL having to justify a niche that is not filled?

This is what makes me want to clean my ears with a fork when reading this conversations. We spend three quarters of the time just trying to justify the existence of the class, rather than actually discussing the class itself. Holy crap, there are weaker justifications for the existence of EXISTING PHB classes. And the goalposts keep moving. We have to define the class mechanically. Ok, ohh, wait, that's not good enough, now we have to justify the class in game fiction, completely ignoring the existing descriptions of the class from 4e. Once we actually do that, we're back to having to justify the mechanics, because critics conveniently develop amnesia and we go around the circle again.

Can we PLEASE actually discuss the class at hand? If you don't feel that there's enough to a warlord, fair enough. That's fine. Go start your own thread that we can safely ignore. For the love of little kittens, PLEASE STOP with the drive by edition war crap.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
Good grief.

Look, as a niche, there is, at this moment, no actual non-caster support class in 5e D&D. None. Now, casters? We've got at least three (bard, cleric and druid) caster support classes. Two of those, druid and cleric, are effectively the same thing in the game world - one's a bit broader and the other is just a nature priest. The only thing that distinguishes a druid from a cleric is shape-shift, a purely mechanical difference. So, ten years into this conversation, are we STILL having to justify a niche that is not filled?

This is what makes me want to clean my ears with a fork when reading this conversations. We spend three quarters of the time just trying to justify the existence of the class, rather than actually discussing the class itself. Holy crap, there are weaker justifications for the existence of EXISTING PHB classes. And the goalposts keep moving. We have to define the class mechanically. Ok, ohh, wait, that's not good enough, now we have to justify the class in game fiction, completely ignoring the existing descriptions of the class from 4e. Once we actually do that, we're back to having to justify the mechanics, because critics conveniently develop amnesia and we go around the circle again.

Can we PLEASE actually discuss the class at hand? If you don't feel that there's enough to a warlord, fair enough. That's fine. Go start your own thread that we can safely ignore. For the love of little kittens, PLEASE STOP with the drive by edition war crap.

The niche martial support is weak is my main point. I am designing a warlord myself, I don't really agree with the concept (martial healer, a lot of the 4E powers etc).

I mean the class Toast is a niche that has not been designed but I don't think we really need a Toast class or a class that makes toast and can throw it as a weapon like the Xmen.

The main point is a few posters are throwing together words and claiming that is a strong niche. They're not most of the ideas are actually back grounds and with 12 classes in the PHB we do not need 12 1/3rd archetypes for each one.

I would focus on the 2 in the 4E PHB they are the strongest archetypes IMHO, get the base class sorted and then think about Bravura, perhaps a magical one. The archer one has been obsoleted, I don't think the lazy lord works in 5E.

The Bravura one might be the easiet to design. It doesn't need th Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger levels of DPS but it should probably be higher than a Cleric for example. You could give it 2 attacks a round at level 5 (or a gambit a'la warlock) and a weapon style perhaps at level 1.

You need to have a short rest second wind ability you can stick on others but it needs to scale (like the fighters) and you are going to need more than 1 (perhaps an extra one at the same rate as cantrips scaling).

You also need another healing ability backed in perhaps at level 2 like a clerics domain perhaps a light cleric reversed to heal instead of inflict.

At level 3 you get a major subclass feature. This would be spells for a 1/3rd caster, and perhaps bard dice and BM dice. If you want more dice you can get them via gambits along with some gambits/exploits perhaps that allow attack granting+ rider. These are all short rest abilities and you could have 2-4 to pick from along with a gambit/exploit that grants perhaps 2 dice (bardic or BM dice).

So by level 4 perhaps you could have something like 6 BM dice and 2 exploits/gambits which allows 8 uses of attack granting. Its not quite at will but if the average fight is 3-4 rounds and you get 2 short rests you can use them a lot. If you used the short rest= 5 minute rule that functionally allows you to get an extra short rest or 2 which more or less turns it into at will. If you focused hard enough on it you might get something close enough to the lazy lord (someone else can update the 4E powers to 5E).

If you don't want to focus so much on attack granting pick a different subclass and you can still pick some exploits/gambits to enable that sort of thing you just won't have BM dice to play with trading them in for bard dice perhaps or spells+ lay on hands which combined with your baked in WL healing. Make some non magical bless effect type option a'la the NPC Knights that you can pick that is another thing you can do.

So there is your 4 best subclasses to build around IMHO.

I like the name Battle Captain for a subclass (perhaps the tactical one), the Marshall perhaps can be inspiring one, Bravura is better at combat and throw in a magical one and in effect you have non magical bard, Battle captain, the bravura and the 1/3rd caster one could be cleric or paladin spell lists the cleric one might get a domain feature (precedent in the Divine Soul), the Paladin one can cast spells from the Paladin list and gets lay on hands at level 1 (which removes things like disease).

If you get the 1st 2 subclasses right those next two would be easy designs you are in effect swapping out some class features for something else. That is easy most of it is in 5E somewhere. The hard part is writing a few exploits/gambits that perhaps can be class exclusive, kind of like Warlock invocations and some of the 4E powers can return and be beefed up if they are outright magical. Come and get it can be similar to suggestion and/or do other things as well as its 4E effect.

You could do an aura one as well updating the 3.5 Marshall as a subclass. Replace short rest type mechanics with auras and stuff like that so tats perhaps a 5th one. Level 1 abilities.

Grant 2nd wind /1 day

Tactical: intelligence to initiative
Inspiring: Cha to healing
Bravura: weapon combat style (enabling a decent archer one a'la 4th), don't include TWF as part of it a'la Paladin.
Divine WL Paladin: One lay on hands, cleric some domain feature.
Marshall: some sort of aura doing whatever.

Lvl 2 Cure 30' 2d8+level (short rest), 1st gambit/exploit
lvl 3 Major subclass ability
Lvl 4 ASI
Level 5 some generic ability+ subclass exclusive gambits/exploits.
Combined with a new exploit/gambit/power every time you level up.
 
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Gardens & Goblins

First Post
Seemingly most Warlord threads are full of folks attempting to appropriate the term 'Warlord' to support whatever ideal they believe represents the 'correct' meaning of term 'Warlord' :confused:
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Have you considered you come across as effectively trolling the subject since you're effectively appropriating the "Warlord" term for your own personal use?

Unlike most of the warlord fans I am actually designing a WL in the 5E context. Hint you can't have at will attack granting it doesn't translate well.

A martial support character is a bad concept IMHO Tweet and Heinsoo may have screwed the pooch there. However I can work with it. Its not the worst thing in D&D ever (healer class and Marshall in 3.5). Mechanically it worked in 4E because of the way 4E was designed (basic attacks) unlike say 5E where a basic attack generally can be anywhere from 1d6+3 or so up to 10d6+5d8+10 (or more).

Granting bonus damage dice for example accomplishes much the same thing but the hardcore fans won't budge on that as they are dead set on having abilities from 4E in the game where every other class is not a 100% translation of what came before.

Its interesting though fans would rather go without in order to be pure/demanding etc than actually design a functional class.

At the end of the day you can design a warlord however you want but it won't make it into 5E officially if you do something silly like stick at will attack granting on it. PHB doesn't have it for a reason a nd despite claims of 5E not being balanced (it is just in a different way) the developers have been very care with things like bonus actions, reactions and class abilities that grant extra damage- generally limited to rerolls, +2, or an extra dice at higher levels that is situational or daily based (hex, colossus slayer etc).

If you keep starting threads that get stuck in its own section, insist that its a popular class (its not), and insist that it does exact same things in 4E where 5E is using a different design thing gee I wonder why Mearls won't do it. Looks like you will actually get a Warlord though eventually. It will be a fighter sub class. Why not contact Mearls on twitter or one of his video feeds and bring up the idea of a new class and get as many people as you can on board?
 
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Aldarc

Legend
Musings on Warlord Subclasses: Creating "narratives" for warlord subclasses is not particularly difficult at all. I also don't think that every warlord subclass should be martial/mundane. Instead, the mundane/martial/magicless only needs to reflect the core chassis of a hypothetical warlord class. So what sort of subclasses could work for a warlord?

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] has a pretty good core three: the gung-ho bravura, the inspiring marshal, and the tactical battle captain. Essentially, "I lead by example," "I lead through inspiration," and "I lead with tactical insight."

I would also like to see a subclass that incorporates divination magic and luck, utilizing a mix of strategic foresight and dumb luck. A warseer? Or doombringer?

Other subclass flavorings that would be nice include a psionic subclass. Or more villanous terror, and fear-leading warlord would also be nice.
 

Enkhidu

Explorer
It's weird to call something solely subjective when numerous explicit reasons were given. Almost sounds like you are trying to minimize those explicit reasons without actually having to deal with them...

Don't get me wrong there is a subjective component when it comes to how early the abilities need to show up by and how strong they need to be. But a couple of subjective components hardly makes something solely subjective or even mostly subjective. The Purple Dragon Knight fails on those 2 fronts. It'd be just like a Wizard class that only started getting spells at 7th level and then only started getting level 1 spells at that time. Such a class would even meet all the checkboxes for being a wizard but it would be a wizard that no wizard fan would be happy with because it gets its defining abilities to slow and they aren't strong enough when you get them.

Say you want a curry for dinner. So do I. We both put together our curry dishes, adding the same kinds, but not amounts, of ingredients. We then share those dishes, and I say that yours is too hot, and you say mine is not hot enough. Objectively they are both curry - they have the same list of ingredients - but subjectively they aren't the same at all.

That's why I said that objections would be subjective, and also said that those subjective objections were perfectly valid. There is no one true way to fill this niche. Now I'm all ears if you can give me an objection that is objective in nature (something where the classes of objects/powers didn't fit the support niche) rather than a matter of magnitude. Otherwise we're just fiddling with dials.

FrogReaver said:
I think the moral of the story is that same goals ought to be obvious even if unstated.

There's a big disconnect - an expectation of mind-reading never works out well for anyone.

FrogReaver said:
It sounds to me like your basic premises about how the PDK's abilities actually work are so screwed up here that we are just going to talk past each other until that part gets taken care of.

As far as I can read, the subclass in question:
* Gives other PCs a lesser version of healing when taking a Second Wind
* Gives another PC a re-roll on saves when re-rolling their own save for the same effect
* Gives another PC an attack when they Action Surge
* Has a few more ribbon abilities that don't effect other PCs.

So, nothing I said about the class is untrue - it centers on "I do something cool and everyone else gets a small benefit," and I think it fails on granting actions because of it. It's objectively missing the buffs that are requested on the list of "must haves" (which I pointed out in my initial run down in my first post in the thread), and that would require something more to be added (likely a method to replicate the mechanics of bless and a handful of other useful spells).
 

Pauln6

Hero
Early it may help. Max level, A PDK is pretty beast at the warlord role when compared with a fighter. Grants 12 attacks. Heals about 200 in the day. Helps with saving throws too. Just in raw numbers a battlemaster that granted 12 attacks (while giving up 12 of his) and adds 78 damage to them and could grant maybe 69 temp hp on average on top of that. The PDK doesn't trade attacks to grant allies them.

All in all, they just made the PDK progress in warlord abilities much too slowly or it may have been received a lot better by warlord fans. That's why in my opinion the PDK at max level is about the top end of what you can do numbers wise with a warlord subclass of fighter, which makes it feel pretty limiting IMO.

That's interesting. So a limited number of non scaling dice might add some variety earlier in the run without busting the bank in terms of dpr by level 20. I was thinking two dice and either two or three manoeuvres from the warlord list, with extras granted at the same levels as battlemaster. If a player wants more, there is always the feat.
 

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