Pathfinder 2E Fighter Class Preview

barasawa

Explorer
I don't have an issue with fighters getting attacks of opportunity at 1st level or with negative numbers... but, I do like the dice chain concept from Dungeon Crawl Classics... that is a fun alternative to penalties.

Dice Chain is really just a different way to do bonuses and penalties, but instead of increasing or decreasing the total by 1 point per, it instead changes the maximum possible value rolled by 1 point per. (Since the DCC dice chain includes the odd numbers as dice as well, such as d5, d7, etc.)

Mathematically it's about a 1/2 point weaker per point of bonus or penalty than the Pathfinder and D&D bonuses and penalties.
 

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Khaalis

Adventurer
There is precious little as to what a fighter can do *outside* of combat...
My impression is that every class gets Skill Feats regularly. Be definition this would give the option for the Fighter to progress in non-combat options. Especially when combined with the newly defined downtime system (assuming its as good as reported to date).
EDIT: Oh, and Ancestry feats may also play into this.
 

R

RevTurkey

Guest
As to AoO...I seem to remember liking the 13th Age version which was about blocking opponents movement past and intercepting movement..or something like that. I liked it although it was a couple of years ago when I ran it so my memory is sketchy. I think AoO’s role in PF2 should be reduced and that looks to be happening so that’s great. Things to keep track of should also be reduced in my opinion. Make character options juicy (without turning into a GURPS/Hero System level black hole of time and space). Overall...I thought PF1 was fun as a player but just on the wrong side of too much work as a GM...if they can improve the fun factor for the person running the game and have them feel less like an administrator and more of a creative part of the process then I think they’ll have a cracking game on their hands. D&D 5e is a good game but I have hopes that PF2 might be more what I am looking for. They need that crunch in the right places. As an aside... I also think they should be careful to keep the physical size of the books slimmer. That monster Core Book is all well and good for seasoned players but it must be crazy intimidating for newcomers to the hobby. It serves little purpose to a publisher like Paizo who want regular product releases to put all their eggs in one basket...save some content and make follow up books worthwhile purchases. Anyway....blah blah blah....I’m clearly waffling. I think I am out of these discussions...I’ll wait for the main release and probably buy it.
 

Eirikrautha

First Post
Probably because 5e has almost no character customization and players like character customization.
Players like customization. I'm not sure if that statement is so vague as to have little meaning or is a declaration of opinion masquerading as fact.

There’s demand for a game with more depth of character building than 5e, and increased depth comes at the cost of increased complexity. Currently, PF1 is the go-to D&D clone for folks who want that addional depth.
Ahhh, I see the issue now! When you say "customization" you mean "a differentiation of character abilities enforced by the rules structure." That's the reason for the disconnect between you and the person you are arguing with. See, I've been "customizing" characters since AD&D; I just never needed the rules to tell me it was ok for one of my fighters to be different from another.

Im not being flippant here. When you talk about customization, you are actually advocating for finely delineated character abilities built into the rules. This increases certain choices available to characters during one phase of the game (during character building) and decreases choices during others (during play, if your character did not take a certain "feat", they are either mechanically or mathematically restricted from attempting something). So you enjoy PF as a "front loaded choice" game. I'm sure many other players do as well. But the success of 5e (not to mention OSR) also suggests many do not. It appears that PF2 will continue to front load it's choices, which explains why some of the posters can already tell it is not a game for them...
 

Arakasius

First Post
Well mechanically in 5e other than the level three choice all fighters pretty much are the same. Sure you can RP them differently but once in combat they act the same. I don’t see how it decreases choices in comparison to 5e, since feats open up options that don’t exist in 5e. A base fighter in PF can do all the same things pretty much that a fighter can in 5e. I could see your point if PF took away from things classes can do, but they add. Problem is 5e is a very vanilla game with painfully few options and for most martials move and attack is pretty much all they do.

They are also fixing the mathematically not being able to do something by their new proficiency system similar to 5e which will allow a fighter to keep rolling skills unlike PF1.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
lack of customization... hmmm

9 race x 12 class x 13 backgrounds... 1404 combos... now let's add subraces, subclasses, fighting styles, spell chosen, feats, multiclasses... You have a strange definition of lack.
 

Arakasius

First Post
I care about how the game plays out when the game gets going. And I was talking about fighter, not all classes. Races/subraces don't change how a fighter plays. Fighting styles similarly has no impact on how you play for most of them. Protection does, but archery/defense/dueling/great weapon fighting/two weapon fighting all just give a passive bonus to something. None actually open up new things you can do. And I doubt anyone takes tunnel fighter or mariner. Feats are an optional rule and other than Battle Master the martial archetypes aren't really giving you any new actions to do. If you play a melee in 5e you're going to be doing move, attack, bonus action attack for pretty much your entire career. Which is something you can do as well in PF1/2 with no feats.
 

Eirikrautha

First Post
Well mechanically in 5e other than the level three choice all fighters pretty much are the same. Sure you can RP them differently but once in combat they act the same. I don’t see how it decreases choices in comparison to 5e, since feats open up options that don’t exist in 5e. A base fighter in PF can do all the same things pretty much that a fighter can in 5e. I could see your point if PF took away from things classes can do, but they add. Problem is 5e is a very vanilla game with painfully few options and for most martials move and attack is pretty much all they do.

They are also fixing the mathematically not being able to do something by their new proficiency system similar to 5e which will allow a fighter to keep rolling skills unlike PF1.

I disagree. In fact, I can say with relative certainty that, at most tables, delineated abilities only increase player choice at creation and serve to restrict player choice during play. I'll give you an example.

A fighter in a less "crunchy" game is surrounded by three opponents who are trying to grab him. The player controlling the fighter looks at the GM and says, "I want to spin around with my sword held outward and try to strike all of the opponents surrounding me. They are crowding in on me, so they would have a hard time not being hit." The DM thinks about it and says,"O.K., that makes sense. It'll be harder to hit the opponents, because you are spinning and not aiming. Take a -5 penalty on each roll."

In a more crunchy game, the DM is more likely to say, "That sounds like a Whirlwind attack. Did you take that feat? If not, you can't do that." Now a more flexible DM might allow someone to try a whirlwind attack untrained with penalties, but then runs the risk of irritating the player who took that feat, as it might be seen as devaluing that feat choice (if anyone can do it, the feat just becomes about bonuses). I've actually seen this happen at the table in a PFS game.

You see, by delineating these choices in the rules, you add to your choices during character creation. But in many circumstances, you've now closed off the other actions you didn't take feats for during play. It's the difference between a board game and a role playing game. In an ideal (meaning theoretical) board game, all actions are prescribed precisely by the rules. In an ideal RPG, all actions are possible, with the rules determining the results. The middle generation of RPGs (3.5, et al.) became more like board games ( I'd argue because of a fear of bad DMs restricting player agency and also the desire to minimize "arbitrary" decisions at the table... but that's another argument). This has somewhat trained many DMs and players to think of RPGs as pseudo-board games (especially in combat), with only those actions expressly permitted as being allowed. AD&D had rules to describe the results of actions; modern RPGs of the same lineage have rules to explain what *can* be done (look at the action economy rules, with bonus actions, reactions, etc...). Pathfinder 1 was firmly in that mold (and less so than 5e is). PF2 appears to have the same underlying rationale...
 

Arakasius

First Post
Neither of those are supported by the rules in their game system, so you're saying that DMs for one style are more permissive? Perhaps. But PFS has to be a flat system, similarly adventures league would also not allow you to do that. But at any home game thats up for the DM to decide, whether its PF or 5e.

Also if you want that sort of freeform RP, you really shouldn't be playing a d20 system.
 
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Eirikrautha

First Post
Neither of those are supported by the rules in their game system, so you're saying that DMs for one style are more permissive?
If by "supported" you mean "explicitly given permission to do," then you are correct. But I'm playing a role playing game, not a board game. I expect to be able to try things that would logically work, rather than choose from a list of preselected actions. See my previous explanation.

Also if you want that sort of freeform RP, you really shouldn't be playing a d20 system.

What!??! That's the *exact* sort of "freeform" RPG I've *been* playing since 1982. It was called "Dungeons and Dragons," and it was the *original* d20 system.

And I think a strong argument can be made that part of 5e's popularity is a return to this mentality. Pathfinder doesn't share that mentality. It trades character build choice for character play choice. That's why some of the previous posters have stated that PF2 does not seem to be different enough for them.
 

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