FAMOUS LAST WORDS: "It wouldn't be here if we weren't supposed to fight it."

[Hawk Diesel]

I one time started a campaign with 1st level characters encountered a beholder. It was my way to set the tone so they knew every problem couldn't be solved through fighting. I wouldn't suggest doing it this way, but for this group it was an effective tactic.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Do you ever put overpowered monsters in the party's path? For example, is it ever possible for a party of level 4 dudes to encounter an adult red dragon? And if so, how do you impress upon your PCs that fighting might not be the answer?

Not a whole lot, prior to 4e, when it just became a way to set up a Skill Challenge. Rather, I'd use wildly-more-powerful monsters as backdrops (world painting) and railway signs (plot devices). "Oh, you can't go that way, that's the territory of a Huge/Ancient Red Dragon allied with an Arcanadaemon who makes Iron Golems for fun, everyone knows you never go /that/ way!" Y'know, not just 'telegraph' it, but translate it from Morse code and hand-deliver it.

You could also just use a more-powerful monster as a gotchya, of course. "It can't be a Beholder, this's the first dungeon level, it must be a gas spore..."

 

[Rod Staffwand]

First: I don't put monsters in the PCs' path. I place the monsters, the players figure out their path. If it goes through monsters, it goes through monsters. That's their problem.

Second: If the players ask: "Do our characters think they have a realistic chance of beating this monster?" I give them an honest assessment. If they don't think to ask such an obvious question, the outcome is really on them.

Third: It seems silly for players to assume that their PCs can beat up everything they encounter. Are they also to assume they can lift every boulder or jump every chasm? Do your players cry "foul!" when you place a castle wall that their characters cannot kick down? Rank outlandishness I tell you.

 

[Fauchard1520]

Y'know, not just 'telegraph' it, but translate it from Morse code and hand-deliver it.

Have you ever had players who just refused to get the message?

 

[ad_hoc]

You guys ever hear of Gygaxian Naturalism? Hit the link for the full story, but here's what's got me curious: Do you ever put overpowered monsters in the party's path? For example, is it ever possible for a party of level 4 dudes to encounter an adult red dragon? And if so, how do you impress upon your PCs that fighting might not be the answer?

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

Just have it be a regular part of the game.

It isn't just single powerful monsters either. Our table knows that if they try to fight everything they will likely run out of resources and die before getting to the next long rest.

If it is a new group used to a game where the PCs auto-win everything then it might take a couple TPKs to set the norm.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I am more of a world simulationist DM than a story-based DM where the world fits itself around the party. There are all kinds of things above (and below!) the pcs' levels in my game, and pcs run into them fairly often. I run a hardcore sandbox, and there are usually some clues to how dangerous a given area is. For instance, random encounters might be with signs of monsters (e.g. dragon scales, catoblepas droppings, etc) rather than monsters themselves.

Ultimately, evaluating the danger level of a given encounter is something that rests pretty thoroughly on the pcs. Things like the number of enemies, how big and nasty they look, the kind of armor they have or weapons they're carrying, their posture (alert and watchful vs. half-asleep), etc., all serve to offer some clues. Players who attack everything usually learn fairly quickly that they can't always get away with that, because they end up getting their asses kicked or even getting their characters killed.

For one concrete example, a pc ranger in my game kept wandering off on his own during a spring in which there were lots of griffons in the sky. Eventually, he got attacked by three of them and eaten.

Jester saves me time from typing out a long response, because this is me as well, pretty much exactly

 

[Tony Vargas]

Have you ever had players who just refused to get the message?

Yes, definitely, no matter how plain you made it - but, the other players would talk them down.

 

[jasper]

Have you ever had players who just refused to get the message?

That death is possibility. Yes. Either after killing their pc once or multiple times, they get the clue. Then either quit playing with me as DM. Or once they get the Western Union telegram, they back off of the encounter.

 

[Satyrn]

Ultimately, evaluating the danger level of a given encounter is something that rests pretty thoroughly on the pcs. Things like the number of enemies, how big and nasty they look, the kind of armor they have or weapons they're carrying, their posture (alert and watchful vs. half-asleep), etc., all serve to offer some clues. . .

Well . . . This has me formulating an experiment to try at my table.

I'm curious to see how the game would change if that was something I flat out told the players. Like along with describing the monsters, I also tell them the CR. So no matter how well or poorly my description conveyed the menace to the players, we're assured that that the characters have been able to evaluate the threat.

I already tell my players how many hit points a monster has remaining in combat (because I track it openly), so giving my playing game-mechanic info is normal for me.

I wonder if telling them the CR of their foes would work.

 

[Harzel]

Well . . . This has me formulating an experiment to try at my table.

I'm curious to see how the game would change if that was something I flat out told the players. Like along with describing the monsters, I also tell them the CR. So no matter how well or poorly my description conveyed the menace to the players, we're assured that that the characters have been able to evaluate the threat.

I already tell my players how many hit points a monster has remaining in combat (because I track it openly), so giving my playing game-mechanic info is normal for me.

I wonder if telling them the CR of their foes would work.

I think telling them is fine, but CR is not a very straightforward indicator of threat beyond the so-rare-it-is-useless case of a solo monster. The XP value is better since at least those values are designed to be added together, but even then you need the encounter guidelines tables as well as some intuition about how far off they are, which itself varies between PC parties. Assuming the # of PCs and their level(s) are fixed, that can be whittled down a fair amount to some simpler guidance, but they'll certainly need some additional info to make use of the numbers.

I allow my players to peruse the MM and not long ago, I actually gave my players the XP-based encounter guidelines, cut down to just what is needed for their particular party. Due to circumstances, they haven't really had an instance in which they could really put it to use yet. It will be interesting to see what they do when the time comes.