FAMOUS LAST WORDS: "It wouldn't be here if we weren't supposed to fight it."

[Fauchard1520]

You guys ever hear of Gygaxian Naturalism? Hit the link for the full story, but here's what's got me curious: Do you ever put overpowered monsters in the party's path? For example, is it ever possible for a party of level 4 dudes to encounter an adult red dragon? And if so, how do you impress upon your PCs that fighting might not be the answer?

(Comic for illustrative purposes.)

 

[iserith]

I sometimes put "overpowered monsters" in the campaign and the path the players choose for the characters intersects with said monsters. I foreshadow its terrible power well before they interact with it and underscore that subsequently when appropriate. If they decide to fight it, that's on them.

 

[Oofta]

Sure. In my last campaign the party (level 15-ish at the time) came across an ancient red dragon. They had a fair bit of warning and could have gone a different direction. Ultimately they decided to talk to it (it was an enemy-of-my-enemy situation) and didn't fight.

I was careful to describe the size and power of the dragon, including details like it's claws gouging rock, feeling the heat off of it from far away, teeth as big as a long sword, etc. We play on a grid I described the scene without putting down minis since people tend to roll for initiative once grid lines are involved.

This is something I discuss during my session 0, that there will be things out there that cannot be fought head on.

 

[the Jester]

I am more of a world simulationist DM than a story-based DM where the world fits itself around the party. There are all kinds of things above (and below!) the pcs' levels in my game, and pcs run into them fairly often. I run a hardcore sandbox, and there are usually some clues to how dangerous a given area is. For instance, random encounters might be with signs of monsters (e.g. dragon scales, catoblepas droppings, etc) rather than monsters themselves.

Ultimately, evaluating the danger level of a given encounter is something that rests pretty thoroughly on the pcs. Things like the number of enemies, how big and nasty they look, the kind of armor they have or weapons they're carrying, their posture (alert and watchful vs. half-asleep), etc., all serve to offer some clues. Players who attack everything usually learn fairly quickly that they can't always get away with that, because they end up getting their asses kicked or even getting their characters killed.

For one concrete example, a pc ranger in my game kept wandering off on his own during a spring in which there were lots of griffons in the sky. Eventually, he got attacked by three of them and eaten.

 

[Dausuul]

Yes. When I do this, I use well-known monsters where I can count on the players to recognize it and go "Whoa, this is out of our league." Everyone knows that when you see a floating orb with lots of eyes, and the party is level 5, that is not a thing you want to fight. (Pro tip: Using "fake-out" monsters like gas spores is just training your players to charge headlong into TPK down the road.)

I also make sure to set up the encounter in such a way as not to provoke the players' combat reflexes. The D&D rules heavily punish anyone who tries to run away--without special abilities or favorable terrain, you literally cannot escape an enemy with speed equal to yours--and no one much likes running away to begin with, so players' fight-or-flight impulses are skewed hard toward "fight."

 

[Mort]

This is something I discuss during my session 0, that there will be things out there that cannot be fought head on.

^ This is always the safest course.

Even though my players know that not all encounters are winnable with a fight, I do always make sure to leave extra avenues of escape and/or alternate solutions in situations where a physical confrontation is essentially unwinnable.

I also tend to overdose on clues/signs and make it pretty obvious that a fight is a losing proposition - this from being in too many situations where the DM expected the players to read his mind that they should be running!

 

[iserith]

Yes. When I do this, I use well-known monsters where I can count on the players to recognize it and go "Whoa, this is out of our league." Everyone knows that when you see a floating orb with lots of eyes, and the party is level 5, that is not a thing you want to fight. (Pro tip: Using "fake-out" monsters like gas spores is just training your players to charge headlong into TPK down the road.)

I also make sure to set up the encounter in such a way as not to provoke the players' combat reflexes. The D&D rules heavily punish anyone who tries to run away--without special abilities or favorable terrain, you literally cannot escape an enemy with speed equal to yours--and no one much likes running away to begin with, so players' fight-or-flight impulses are skewed hard toward "fight."

The Chase Rules in the DMG allow for the possibility for escape despite speed differences by giving those running away a chance to hide at the end of every round. So that's a chance for at least some characters to get away. Characters who are bad at hiding should consider spending some resources like Inspiration to increases their chances of survival.

 

[Blue]

Yeah, I put in creatures both way above and way below the PCs power. And make sure that it comes across in my descriptions.

Start them early with a fight they know they can't win, so they understand that there are times retreat or at least not a frontal assault is their best option. And then have them with a substantially similar fight later int eh campaign, where they can beat it and know they are getting more powerful. And then late in the campaign use them like fodder so the PCs can recognize how seriously powerful they've gotten and revel in it some. Hydras and giants are good suggestions - recognizable and scary.

The flip side is also that not everything can be immediate-fight-to-death hostile. Maybe they can talk or bribe their way, or just use stealth to avoid. Things that will defend territory but not give chase. Those who oppose the party but aren't bloodthirsty to kill them if not forced to.

And alternate win conditions. The demon is way beyond you - but if you can keep it busy while also disrupting the ritual, it will go away. Keep the attacking horde from killing the fleeing villagers until they are across the canyon and the bridge has been destroyed. That sort of thing.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I sometimes put "overpowered monsters" in the campaign and the path the players choose for the characters intersects with said monsters. I foreshadow its terrible power well before they interact with it and underscore that subsequently when appropriate. If they decide to fight it, that's on them.

Pretty much this.

The neat thing is sometimes the players still win. I find those are times my favorites.

 

[Ancalagon]

We had a preeety big discussion about this recently:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Run-away!-quot-what-if-they-don-t&highlight=