Two thoughts on Pathfinder 2e playtest

[robus]

1) This seems like madness!

On page 291 of the rulebook:

2. Calculate the resultOnce you’ve identified the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply to your roll, you calculate the result (sometimes called a “total”) using the following formula.



Result of a roll = number on the die + ability modifier + proficiency modifier + circumstance bonus + conditional bonus + item bonus + circumstance penalty + conditional penalty + item penalty + untyped penalties

How does anyone look at that and think fun?!

2) This seems like genius!

On page 10 of the playtest adventure:

Q3. Vermin Den Severe 1
This roughly carved chamber looks to have once been much larger, but now the entire southern half is choked with rubble and debris.

Thank you for telling me the intended difficulty of the encounter! WotC please take note!

Hopefully at some point we'll get the usability of Pathfinder adventures with the simplicity of the 5e rules!

 

[ccs]

1) This seems like madness!

On page 291 of the rulebook:






2. Calculate the result once you’ve identified the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply to your roll, you calculate the result (sometimes called a “total”) using the following formula.


Result of a roll = number on the die + ability modifier + proficiency modifier + circumstance bonus + conditional bonus + item bonus + circumstance penalty + conditional penalty + item penalty + untyped penalties

How does anyone look at that and think fun?!

So you don't like D&D?
Because this is exactly what's been since 1974....

Let's see:

Let's say we're trying to hit something with our great sword in 5e.
Result of a roll = number on the die (5) + ability modifier (3 {str mod}) + proficiency modifier (2) + circumstance bonus (+d4 thanks to our friend the cleric handing out Bless) + conditional bonus + item bonus (+1 - because it's an old school magic weapon!) + circumstance penalty (-5 because we're using our GWM) + conditional penalty + item penalty + untyped penalties

I didn't fill in a # for everything. I'm sure I could though. But you get the idea. Whatever edition/system you're playing, it's all the same. Roll the dice. Add mods. Subtract mods. Report total.

 

[robus]

So you don't like D&D?
Because this is exactly what's been since 1974....

I was with it as the bonuses added up - it was the long list of possible penalties that made my eyes roll back in my head!

 

[ccs]

I was with it as the bonuses added up - it was the long list of possible penalties that made my eyes roll back in my head!

Ahh, you're on of those players. It's all fine & good as long as you're getting +s. But apply a - you'll start crying about lack of fun.

Fortunately Hasbro still makes Candyland.

 

[robus]

Ahh, you're on of those players. It's all fine & good as long as you're getting +s. But apply a - you'll start crying about lack of fun.

Fortunately Hasbro still makes Candyland.

Well I rarely get to be a player - but it seems like there could be a lot of fighting over which penalties apply. I much prefer Advantage/Disadvantage alternative in 5e.

 

[Jer]

I was with it as the bonuses added up - it was the long list of possible penalties that made my eyes roll back in my head!

The trick is that the formula there is almost exactly what it was in 3e, except that they've given names to all of the different kinds of bonuses and penalties.

From a game designer perspective it makes sense - you want to be as precise as possible when you're designing the game. From a game learner perspective it looks kind of ridiculous when it's spelled out like that. If the formula were written as:

number on the die + ability modifier + proficiency modifier + circumstance/conditional/item bonuses - circumstance/conditional/item penalties

it would be less weird. If it were:

number on the die + ability modifier + proficiency modifier + bonuses - penalties

It would be basically describing D&D since 3e. Though 5e worked to get rid of a lot of bonuses/penalties by introducing the advantage/disadvantage mechanic - though arguments can be made that that mechanic doesn't have enough granularity compared to bonuses and penalties.

(I do think that there's an argument to be made that the playtest rules feel like they are too "game designer" focused rather than for a more 'general audience'. I don't know if that's because it's a playtest document or if they're making the same "mistake" that Wizards did with 4th edition in that respect, but I can see it.)

 

[robus]

It would be basically describing D&D since 3e. Though 5e worked to get rid of a lot of bonuses/penalties by introducing the advantage/disadvantage mechanic - though arguments can be made that that mechanic doesn't have enough granularity as bonuses and penalties do).

Given the imaginary nature of the game I think the advantage/disadvantage gives just the right amount of granularity.

(I do think that there's an argument to be made that the playtest rules feel like they are too "game designer" focused rather than for a more 'general audience'. I don't know if that's because it's a playtest document or if they're making the same "mistake" that Wizards did with 4th edition in that respect, but I can see it.)

Well said. It's a sign of who these books are marketed to that the "Playing the Game" chapter doesn't appear until page 290!

 

[robus]

It would be basically describing D&D since 3e. Though 5e worked to get rid of a lot of bonuses/penalties by introducing the advantage/disadvantage mechanic - though arguments can be made that that mechanic doesn't have enough granularity compared to bonuses and penalties.

Huh - looks like Pathfinder does include an advantage/disadvantage mechanic also!

ROLLING TWICE AND REROLLS
Fortune and misfortune effects can alter how you roll your dice. These abilities might allow you to reroll a failed roll, force you to reroll a successful roll, allow you to roll twice and take the higher result, or force you to roll twice and take the lower result.
You can never have more than one fortune or misfortune effect come into play on a single roll. For instance, if you roll twice and take the higher roll, you can’t use Halfling Luck to reroll if you still fail. If multiple fortune effects would apply, you have to pick which to use. If two misfortune effects apply, the GM decides which is worse and applies it.
If you are subject to both a fortune effect and a misfortune effect on the same roll, the two cancel each other out and you roll normally

 

[zztong]

I much prefer Advantage/Disadvantage alternative in 5e.

Advantage/Disadvantage is there (in 5e) because of the Bounded Accuracy philosophy. They didn't want modifiers to push the numbers beyond their goal range.

But to a player attempting to figure out their odds of success, Advantage/Disadvantage is actually more complex. If you weigh the odds, Advantage/Disadvantage is equivalent to a sliding modifier of +1 to +5 (Advantage) / -1 to -5 (Disadvantage) depending on what you needed to succeed. There are basically times when an Advantage isn't much of an advantage.

Anyways, its more complex if you're computing odds. I'm not saying its bad. Within the context of Bounded Accuracy, I like it.

 

[Parmandur]

Advantage/Disadvantage is there (in 5e) because of the Bounded Accuracy philosophy. They didn't want modifiers to push the numbers beyond their goal range.

But to a player attempting to figure out their odds of success, Advantage/Disadvantage is actually more complex. If you weigh the odds, Advantage/Disadvantage is equivalent to a sliding modifier of +1 to +5 (Advantage) / -1 to -5 (Disadvantage) depending on what you needed to succeed. There are basically times when an Advantage isn't much of an advantage.

Anyways, its more complex if you're computing odds. I'm not saying its bad. Within the context of Bounded Accuracy, I like it.

It's complex for calculating precision odds, but very intuitive in motion.