Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Yes and I am using that presumption in my costing system for practices too.
D&D 4E List of Potential New Martial Practices
Yes and I am using that presumption in my costing system for practices too.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
That handbook has me wondering if I should write up my Martial Practices in their final form in a more system neutral fashion. Include pricing that is more cross edition, like hit point expenditure and the like. [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]
I already seem to be thinking in terms of using Engineering
I already seem to be thinking in terms of using Engineering
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Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
a level 1 practice might only be learnable at level 5 in a 20 level systems
A level 10 practice would be learnable at 10
A level 20 practice would be learnable at 15
A level 30 practice would be learnable at 20
The above rather presumes the lower levels correspond with AD&D or 5e
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I have really found the 20 level progression to be a lot more natural than the 30 level one of 4e. I think the 4e designers started out with the basic 20 level progression concept, and then they imagined epic tier as a sort of 'other game' or additional material, much like AD&D or 3.x basically assume you would play for 20 levels and then maybe anything beyond that is a sort of optional 'god mode' (which I guess 3.x actually calls 'epic', though I'm not really a 3.x guru).
Over time the design kind of shifted. They invented epic destinies, etc. Then, I suspect, at some point they kind of 'rescaled' the game and tried to tame the sort of 'craziness' that happened in high level play in earlier editions. Maybe this wasn't really a separate phase of design but as it happened it kind brought epic tier 'down to earth' in a sense, remaking it into sort of just 'high level play' again, so that by the time 4e was released its level 30 is basically pretty similar to level 20 in earlier systems.
I think the process wasn't really a positive one. The original idea of putting a 'crazy god mode' into the intended scope of the rules wasn't a BAD idea, but when it effectively just ended up as 30 levels of what was once 20 it burdened the game with too many levels. HoML is great because there are SO MANY FEWER needs for extra 'stuff' to invent to 'fill levels'. Each thing is just more naturally significant and interesting in and of itself. Pacing of level advancement can always be accomplished by whatever means, simply giving out major boons less often basically.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I will say I do not know how yours progresses I made that translation based on AD&D / 5e where those lower levels were can you run the gauntlet and not have your farmer apprentice not die ... levels.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Well, this is the funny thing about 4e, you don't have the 'farmer apprentice' levels, but in a sense you don't have the super crazy gonzo 'god levels' EITHER. So you have 30 levels which are actually pretty consistently a gradual progression from fairly bad-ass nascent local hero up through 'best in this city' to 'best in the kingdom' (paragon) to 'best in the world today' (level 21 or so) to 'best who ever lived' (level 30), but a lot of the same concepts govern all these levels. Now, admittedly, some people play epic MUCH more 'gonzo' than others. It can have that element to it, but its still not quite like classic D&D or 3.x where level 14+ wizards and priests are laying down wish-level magic.
That made me feel like 30 levels was overkill, and in designing a 20 level progression variation of 4e I found that this was indeed the case.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Martialling Troops aka Oath of Fealty
Marshalling Troops aka Oath of Fealty
In pure abstracted form this allow you to efficiently expend resources to bring troops to bear against a problem situation (aka skill challenge) This requires you to be in a situation which allows you to acquire troops so it like most practices and rituals quite situational.
Generally the effect is expenditure of Karma / Gold after making a skill check which modifies the cost and represents the quality of your application of the forces to the task. (see below about visualizing). This gains you forces needed to address the challenge and gain an auto success in the challenge.
How much does it cost? That part is actually fairly easy. Governing roll is normally History.
Perhaps a chart like this?
A good roll and its 1/40th the cost of a magic item at the level of the challenge you are facing.
a fair roll and its 1/30
a meh roll and its 1/20
a critical failure roll and its a full 1/10th the price of a magic item at that level
How do we visualize this? The is not actually just about paying daily wages for troops that is really a tuppence the Oaths of Fealty you make bind you to pay the cost associated with the death of your Thanes and to expend resources towards healing their injuries and so on. Part of the value of troops marshalled is they are not necessarily located in story context exactly where you are they become a flanking approach to the problem. IE they may be a valuable distraction or larger scale intimidation which averts a portion of the issue or removes an obstacle interfering with a heroes action in the challenge doubling there results. Flavorwise knowing this practice includes maintaining a reputation a family name a connection to your organization etc.
What are we missing? ... numbers and nature of the troops. AT the core even though I want numbers really is about flavor and aiding visualization.
Numbers with names to abstract them
fireteam(4 or 5)
squad (10)
platoon (40 or 50)
company or centurion 100)
legion.(4000 or 5000)
Mayhaps the player might make up the style or nature of the troops (still could be fun to have some easy ideas handy )
Participating.
An exertion (and potentially healing surge cost dependent on skill check as usual) can also be used to represent you taking active part in the portion of the battle either via genius or bravura in which your troops feature assuring most of the soldiery can survive while reaping glory and situational hazard pay (looting the enemy forces), ie without karma point or gold piece cost to you ie you take the brunt of any failures upon yourself in one fashion or another perhaps your spent a healing surge saving the life of of your soldiers and inspired all the rest.
When you arent at home aka Schrodinger's rescue troops ie a way to use your troops very much on the fly is represented by an application of Trained Preparedness (perhaps kept interesting by increasing the difficulty of the skill check with failures sometimes meaning the troops didnt arrive in time and similar issues)
Anyway I want to start enumerating details on some of these practices.
Marshalling Troops aka Oath of Fealty
In pure abstracted form this allow you to efficiently expend resources to bring troops to bear against a problem situation (aka skill challenge) This requires you to be in a situation which allows you to acquire troops so it like most practices and rituals quite situational.
Generally the effect is expenditure of Karma / Gold after making a skill check which modifies the cost and represents the quality of your application of the forces to the task. (see below about visualizing). This gains you forces needed to address the challenge and gain an auto success in the challenge.
How much does it cost? That part is actually fairly easy. Governing roll is normally History.
Perhaps a chart like this?
A good roll and its 1/40th the cost of a magic item at the level of the challenge you are facing.
a fair roll and its 1/30
a meh roll and its 1/20
a critical failure roll and its a full 1/10th the price of a magic item at that level
How do we visualize this? The is not actually just about paying daily wages for troops that is really a tuppence the Oaths of Fealty you make bind you to pay the cost associated with the death of your Thanes and to expend resources towards healing their injuries and so on. Part of the value of troops marshalled is they are not necessarily located in story context exactly where you are they become a flanking approach to the problem. IE they may be a valuable distraction or larger scale intimidation which averts a portion of the issue or removes an obstacle interfering with a heroes action in the challenge doubling there results. Flavorwise knowing this practice includes maintaining a reputation a family name a connection to your organization etc.
What are we missing? ... numbers and nature of the troops. AT the core even though I want numbers really is about flavor and aiding visualization.
Numbers with names to abstract them
fireteam(4 or 5)
squad (10)
platoon (40 or 50)
company or centurion 100)
legion.(4000 or 5000)
Mayhaps the player might make up the style or nature of the troops (still could be fun to have some easy ideas handy )
Participating.
An exertion (and potentially healing surge cost dependent on skill check as usual) can also be used to represent you taking active part in the portion of the battle either via genius or bravura in which your troops feature assuring most of the soldiery can survive while reaping glory and situational hazard pay (looting the enemy forces), ie without karma point or gold piece cost to you ie you take the brunt of any failures upon yourself in one fashion or another perhaps your spent a healing surge saving the life of of your soldiers and inspired all the rest.
When you arent at home aka Schrodinger's rescue troops ie a way to use your troops very much on the fly is represented by an application of Trained Preparedness (perhaps kept interesting by increasing the difficulty of the skill check with failures sometimes meaning the troops didnt arrive in time and similar issues)
Anyway I want to start enumerating details on some of these practices.
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Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
King Arthur of legend had approximately 100 named roundtable knights even 4 of these were not a match for an unarmed and unarmored Lancelot. ie in game terms they were minion class characters and maybe even significantly lower level than his hero Class Knights (Arguably other PCs) .
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Right. I mean, even by old school D&D a 'knight' is basically a 4th level fighter. Not super common but only incrementally stronger than a hobgoblin or bugbear. Certainly a 9th level fighter in 1e would handle several at once.
So, likewise, in 4e, as NPCs you're looking at a bunch of maybe mid-heroic minions and standards, with some paragon figures to represent the really heavy hitters. King Arthur and Lancelot are probably level 18 elites or something like that maybe.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I have ulterior motives in thinking about this ... ie maybe this can give me those flavor numbers for my Marshalling Troop / Oath of Fealty (Warlord Practice)
Old school Knight is a level 1 4e fighter of course but it wasnt a landed one.
I estimate the roundtable knights a bit higher (aside from wierdos like other PCs) in 1e terms most Roundtable knights I believe had their own estates and castles and followers and it took a lot bullying and impressing to get them under the Dragons Banner, I think we can use the Name Level == Paragon.
I think you estimated Arthur Close but I am going a couple levels higher (say early epic) . Epic Destinies on board by the time he was dealing with that many. (100+ roundtable knights)
A fireteam I was thinking were like 4 or 5 sturdy 2 hit minions or the squad as 10 normal minions. And that many can generate 1 success for a challenge of their level. (Heros and heroic effort is pretty awesome) ---> if that works we have our numbers.
Arthur deciding to use his Oaths of Fealty / Marshalling Troops practice in an at level challenge like hunting for the grail - perhaps those 100 knights are 25 fireteam worth of characters which are 10 levels lower than Arthur (and the skill challenge).
Technically one could get fewer of those with their own followers backing them handwave handwave for the war between Mordred and Arthur. Arthur got only part of his round table but this wasnt a holy quest and they pulled in their followers and so over all potency could still be analogous to the Grail Quest forces
I am thinking flavor math here... you complained about the somewhat more rigorous math
All I am shooting for is the "Hey that kind of works feeling"
Old school Knight is a level 1 4e fighter of course but it wasnt a landed one.
I estimate the roundtable knights a bit higher (aside from wierdos like other PCs) in 1e terms most Roundtable knights I believe had their own estates and castles and followers and it took a lot bullying and impressing to get them under the Dragons Banner, I think we can use the Name Level == Paragon.
I think you estimated Arthur Close but I am going a couple levels higher (say early epic) . Epic Destinies on board by the time he was dealing with that many. (100+ roundtable knights)
A fireteam I was thinking were like 4 or 5 sturdy 2 hit minions or the squad as 10 normal minions. And that many can generate 1 success for a challenge of their level. (Heros and heroic effort is pretty awesome) ---> if that works we have our numbers.
Arthur deciding to use his Oaths of Fealty / Marshalling Troops practice in an at level challenge like hunting for the grail - perhaps those 100 knights are 25 fireteam worth of characters which are 10 levels lower than Arthur (and the skill challenge).
Technically one could get fewer of those with their own followers backing them handwave handwave for the war between Mordred and Arthur. Arthur got only part of his round table but this wasnt a holy quest and they pulled in their followers and so over all potency could still be analogous to the Grail Quest forces
I am thinking flavor math here... you complained about the somewhat more rigorous math
All I am shooting for is the "Hey that kind of works feeling"
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