Banishing Eldritch Blast

[Hawk Diesel]

Well, if you take the Repelling Blast Cantrip, this is only a problem for your first beam (unless it misses). It’s still a good idea to have a melee Cantrip in your back pocket, but often it’s worth the disadvantage on the first attack to get the following ones off.

That's fair, but unless you have an ally with Sentinel or Polearm Master, there's nothing stopping that enemy from running right back in the Warlock's face, especially if they move faster than 30ft. Also, this assumes there's room. Tight corridors, pit traps, fighting in water... all things that may negate the benefit of Repelling Blast.

 

[AnotQuiteSimpleSoul]

Ehhhh i think the intent is that you repel the guy in front of you and the extra beams from leveling up are free to fire normally. Not the the guys is somehow immobilized far away from you.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Ehhhh i think the intent is that you repel the guy in front of you and the extra beams from leveling up are free to fire normally. Not the the guys is somehow immobilized far away from you.

Not sure if you are responding to me. What I am saying is that Repelling Blast is not going to be effective in every situation. You can't knock an enemy back if there's no room to knock them back to. In wide open spaces, sure. You can knock an enemy back if you hit them with a ray at disadvantage, then use any remaining beams as normal and possibly even use your move action to put distance between you and the enemy. But this assumes there's:

1) Room to use this tactic

2) There is only one enemy within 5ft of you.

 

[AnotQuiteSimpleSoul]

Yeah, but that still means the guy can't just rush back up in your face before you get your next shot off is what I'm saying.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Yeah, but that still means the guy can't just rush back up in your face before you get your next shot off is what I'm saying.

I am not saying that. But once you have taken your Action (regardless of the number of blasts you have) and ended your turn, that same enemy has nothing stopping him from using their move action on their turn to get right back in your face and continue to harass you. So yes, Repelling Blast is useful, but you will still continue to have at least one, if not more, Eldritch Blast rays at disadvantage unless you can put more distance between you and that enemy than they have movement speed.

Of course, this also assumes the enemy has no Legendary Action that gives free movement, or some reaction ability that allows it to move in response to an attack. In which case, it could in fact move back in your face at least once between blasts.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I'm with the OP. Not necessarily on the solution, but on the "problem".

First, any argument that states (in essence) "Well you don't have to optimize your character; you can always roleplay instead" is a weak argument. While true at face value, it misses the point that good game design should minimize that tradeoff. (It's the same problem with ASIs vs. weak but flavorful Feats.) If the Warlock had been designed well you shouldn't have to sacrifice such an effective attack in order to...be different. ( And it's a testament to so many players I've met that they do make that sacrifice.)

Second, I don't buy for a second that Eldritch Blast makes Warlocks unique and fun. Other than doing lots of damage, the only difference between this and other cantrips is that you get to target multiple enemies and you almost never encounter damage resistance. That's good and useful, and it's unique in the sense that it's markedly better than what any other caster gets, but it doesn't really mean that the class plays differently than other casters (at least when it comes to default attacks). In other words, in the absence of EB the class would feel 99% as distinct from other casters as it currently does.

I skipped most of 3e and all of 4e, so I didn't know what a D&D warlock was when I came back during Next. I landed in a forum discussion at WotC where folks were saying that EB defines the Warlock; it wouldn't be a Warlock without EB, etc. When I asked what this "Eldritch Blast" was, all I could gather was that it was just like a bunch of other spells, but did Force damage.

Really? THAT'S the class's signature spell? It just does damage that is sort of like elemental damage but isn't an element? I thought that was just ridiculously lame and weak. And I still think so.

Thirdly, from an RP/lore/storytelling perspective I find it improbable and problematic that every single entity in the multiverse that signs pacts with mortals shares the ability to grant this one exceptionally powerful 0-level spell, but otherwise the spell is (almost entirely) non-existent. It just doesn't make any sense. If this were true about a spell that somehow was related to the signing of pacts I would get it. But it's just a very effective blast spell.

So, yeah, I kind of hate EB....

 

[5ekyu]

Eldritch Blast is really the best damage dealing cantrip. So good, that our Warlock with Pact of the Tome and Magic Initiate recently mentioned that he never cast any of his other cantrips (except for Guidance). Looking at the other cantrips, there's a lot of possible interest there: damage types, side effects and so forth. So here is my proposal.

Eldritch Blast is removed. In compensation, Warlocks get to add their various Blast invocations to any one-target cantrip that does damage (with one minor change, which is that Spear is tripled range, instead of a flat 300'). Additionally, at 2nd level they get the Minor Arcanum: two cantrips from any arcane spell list (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard).

Example: with 16 Charisma, I take Chill Touch, Ray of Frost and Toll the Dead. At 2nd level I take Agonizing Blast and Lethargy Blast. Chill Touch deals d8+3 necrotic damage at 120', target loses 10 speed and can't regain hit points for one round. Ray of Frost deals d8+3 cold damage at 60', target loses 20 speed for one round. Toll the Dead deals d8+3 necrotic, or d12+3 if they've already taken damage, at 60', and is a Wisdom save instead of a ranged attack roll. I think I now have some interesting decisions, instead of spam EB. Heresy perhaps?

"Eldritch Blast is really the best damage dealing cantrip."

Proof?

Tolling the dead goes d12s after essentially the first hit on an enemy.
Chilling touch counters healing and regen which is effectively extra damage against many threatening foes at levels that really matter.
Firebolt does basically the same damage but only requires one to- hit which let's it get a bit better use out of temporary advantages like say from Guiding Bolt.

So, where is the proof that EB **alone** is the best damaging cantrip.

I think what you may have actually meant was The Warlock class features make EB better than other cantrips for the Warlock.

That's kind of like saying "the Rogue sneak attack makes finesse and ranged weapons better than others."

The effectiveness boosts using EB for Warlocks are every b

it as much a design feature for that class as sneak boosting finesse is for Rogues.

Are you gonna change how sneak works because your rogue doesn't go for greataxe?

If your Warlock is bored with the choices he made, that's a sign they may have chosen poorly or that the challenges are a bit too much of the same old same old.

 

[clearstream]

"Eldritch Blast is really the best damage dealing cantrip."

Proof?

Tolling the dead goes d12s after essentially the first hit on an enemy.
Chilling touch counters healing and regen which is effectively extra damage against many threatening foes at levels that really matter.
Firebolt does basically the same damage but only requires one to- hit which let's it get a bit better use out of temporary advantages like say from Guiding Bolt.

So, where is the proof that EB **alone** is the best damaging cantrip.

Eldritch Blast fires three separate force damage type bolts, 120'. Each typically receives the Warlock's Charisma modifier as a bonus.

At tier 1, this readily looks like at least 3d10+9 = 25.5 versus Toll the Bell at 3d12=19.5, given Charisma 16. There are two other subtle factors that do count. More creatures resist Necrotic than Force (nearly nothing resists Force), the bolt has better range than Toll, and the bolts can be divided over targets for efficiency at higher levels (e.g. bolt 1 knocks the target, so bolt 2 goes to a different target). Toll must do all its damage to one target even if only part of that damage was needed to knock that target down.

Mechanically, I honestly believe it is uncontentious that Eltdritch Blast is the most damaging cantrip, given Agonising Blast (which is so much a must-take that it is essentially an "invocation tax").

I use highly varied challenges in my campaign, which has run 64 sessions with characters going from level 1 to level 12. Warlock is a great class, flavourful and a lot of fun. I think it can gain mechanical interest by letting Warlocks do more with other damage cantrips: as always, balance is more about making more strategies valid, than reducing power. I believe this change would make more strategies valid, but coming back to your main criticism - proof? What do you think of the numbers?

 

[5ekyu]

Eldritch Blast fires three separate force damage type bolts, 120'. Each typically receives the Warlock's Charisma modifier as a bonus.

At tier 1, this readily looks like at least 3d10+9 = 25.5 versus Toll the Bell at 3d12=19.5, given Charisma 16. There are two other subtle factors that do count. More creatures resist Necrotic than Force (nearly nothing resists Force), the bolt has better range than Toll, and the bolts can be divided over targets for efficiency at higher levels (e.g. bolt 1 knocks the target, so bolt 2 goes to a different target). Toll must do all its damage to one target even if only part of that damage was needed to knock that target down.

Mechanically, I honestly believe it is uncontentious that Eltdritch Blast is the most damaging cantrip, given Agonising Blast (which is so much a must-take that it is essentially an "invocation tax").

I use highly varied challenges in my campaign, which has run 64 sessions with characters going from level 1 to level 12. Warlock is a great class, flavourful and a lot of fun. I think it can gain mechanical interest by letting Warlocks do more with other damage cantrips: as always, balance is more about making more strategies valid, than reducing power. I believe this change would make more strategies valid, but coming back to your main criticism - proof? What do you think of the numbers?

In my PHB eldritch blast fires one d10 bolt per tier.

At tier-1 thats a to-hit roll out to 120' for avg 5.5.

Toll the dead is only 60' with wis save vs to-hit (pretty good for wide variety of foes) and after any dmg is a d12.

The 60 vs 120 not normally a big deal. It will hit sometimes for sure but if its often enough to hit cantrip voability there are a lot of other things being hit too - like the very viability of melee builds.

Both advance their dice as each tier goes up but especially for saves against targets that dont favor wisdom, toll will get better long term results damage wise.

As for any warlock class feature - as soon as you are throwing that in you have left the building as far as comparing "cantrips". You are now comparing classes.

Its like someone saying rapiers do more damage than greataxes because they want to add in sneak attack to the calculations.


If you are really wanting to argue that EB is the most damaging cantrip **for warlocks that sink invocations into boosting it" then yes, thats the case. But all you are stating is "the warlock has class abilities that boost EB and not other cantrips" and thats really not news or something that needs changing, is it? Its certainly not a problem with THE CANTRIP that the class adds stuff to it, right?

Have you compared war-eb to say sorcery red dragon fire bolt with the affinity boost from the bloodline and the elemental adept feat (plus empower and twin if you are inclined).its not too shabby.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I honestly just see Eldritch Blast as the Warlock's normal attack, especially when he specializes on it.

I mean sure, my fighter uses his normal attack most of the time during combat, does that mean I need to nerf it so he also uses Grapple, Shove, Help and other available actions? Nope.

My rogue also uses sneak attack pretty much all the time. It also deals much more damage than his normal attack, so there's no reason for the rogue to not use it. Does that mean I need to banish it? Nope.