FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
No, we're not disagreeing "it shouldn't be better".
We're disagreeing with your basic premise, that you imply here. But let's take it step by step.
- a level 1 spell slot is a resource: Agreed.
- anything that requires a resource should be better than something that doesn't: I personally agree.
That’s quite a bit more helpful. Thank you.
What you don't say, but obviously assert anyway, is:
- a level 1 spell slot (limited resource) is not better than a cantrip (unlimited resource): I disagree.
And so far I haven't seen you actually face up to this.
Maybe because that isn’t actually what I’m saying. I’m not claiming a level 1 spell slot is worse than a cantrip. In fact there’s many spells a level 1 slot could be used on that I would consider to be much better than a cantrip. I’ve admitted this many times in the thread.
A level 1 spell slot can be used for much more than damage. This makes it very wobbly to claim cantrips are better than L1 slots.
I agree. It’s a good thing that isn’t my claim.
For damage? Perhaps. But overall? Nope.
Agreed.
Are cantrips better than individual level 1 spells, then? Well, if you cast them in L1 slots, then again - maybe, if we only look at damage (which we shouldn't). But again, L1 spells can be cast in L2 (or L9) slots, so even that narrow case is again... wobbly.
I agree. But i’m not saying a cantrip is worse than a level 1 spell cast from any spell slot. I am saying a level 1 spell cast from a level 1 spell slot is not better than a cantrip if you are at least a certain character level. I’m really not sure why I need to keep repeating this.
Ergo: no change is needed, even before we consider the fallout of making a change.
Or you could provide a response to what I’m actually saying instead of arguing against things I’m not saying. And even worse, making points I actually agree with as if I don’t.
All that's left of your sweeping argumentation is: level 1 spells that only do damage and cannot be upcast. Here I am willing to give you the point: yes they are worse than cantrips, and yes they are resource-constrained while cantrips are not.
There you go again, ignoring my actual claim in favor of attacking claims that I am not making. They have a rather offensive word for that... I’m going to avoid using it in hopes of civil discourse.
My main rebuttal here, though, is simply: *shrug*
I don't recommend changing spells in general just to fix this tiny issue, especially since its self-correcting in actual play: players simply never use L1 slots to cast spells that deal less damage than their cantrips!
The actual issue I raise isn’t self correcting in actual play. That said, I’ve agreed for some time that there isn’t an easy enough way to make 5e do what I desire without having too many other consequences that I don’t desire.
That still doesn’t change that almost every post here is talking past me and not actually responding to the point I am making.