Out Of Combat Action Surge Uses

[Yunru]

The characters are negotiating with an NPC when one player yells "I'm sick of this, I cast a spell!", another player responds with "No, I try to stop him!", a third player says "I cast counterspell!" and the GM decides that the NPC flees. How to determine whose actions get resolved first?

The characters are caught in a room filled with flames. One of them starts picking the lock to get out. How to determine how much damage the characters take before the thief picks the lock?

The characters are climbing across a rope bridge while someone on the other side is trying to cut the bridge. How to determine whether or not they make it before the bridge is destroyed? Maybe its a race - several characters are trying to be the first to cross the bridge. How to determine who wins?

Roll Initiative (a DEX ability check) and track rounds.

The combat rules are not just for when someone is trying to harm someone else. They are for any encounter where the order of actions is important and timekeeping is required.

Uh... all of your examples include someone trying to harm someone else though?
Try using an example that matches your point.

 

[Mistwell]

The characters are negotiating with an NPC when one player yells "I'm sick of this, I cast a spell!", another player responds with "No, I try to stop him!", a third player says "I cast counterspell!" and the GM decides that the NPC flees. How to determine whose actions get resolved first?

The characters are caught in a room filled with flames. One of them starts picking the lock to get out. How to determine how much damage the characters take before the thief picks the lock?

The characters are climbing across a rope bridge while someone on the other side is trying to cut the bridge. How to determine whether or not they make it before the bridge is destroyed? Maybe its a race - several characters are trying to be the first to cross the bridge. How to determine who wins?

Roll Initiative (a DEX ability check) and track rounds.

The combat rules are not just for when someone is trying to harm someone else. They are for any encounter where the order of actions is important and timekeeping is required.

I no longer know what point you're trying to make which is relevant to the point I was trying to make. What does your point have to do with the use or non-use of action surge in situations which IN THE COMMON PARLANCE OF D&D FANS HERE IN THIS THREAD they're referring to "out of combat"?

IE - what the heck are you looking for here?

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Uh... all of your examples include someone trying to harm someone else though?
Try using an example that matches your point.

Mistwell said, "Combat is not any situation with time constraints and actions.". He's wrong. Also, none of the examples he gave actually included time constraints and actions.

I'm saying that if you are in a situation where time constraints and order of actions are important then you are "in combat". Use the combat rules, including features like Action Surge.

Action Surge has no meaning "out of combat" because if you are "out of combat" then you are not tracking timing and order of actions.

 

[Mistwell]

Mistwell said, "Combat is not any situation with time constraints and actions.". He's wrong. Also, none of the examples he gave actually included time constraints and actions.

Say what? Here some the examples again. Show me which ones do not include both 1) time constraints, and 2) actions. Hint - I've noted the action and time contraint in them all.

Party is scaling a wall or cliff [ACTION] to enter a building and doing it quickly is of concern because they don't want to be spotted by the roving guards [TIME CONSTRAINT]. Where others can climb 15 feet in 6 seconds, the fighter could climb 30 feat with an action surge.

The party ducks into the Count's bedroom during the ball to search for a key [ACTION], and they have moments before they must leave or be caught [TIME CONSTRAINT]. Where others can make either an active perception check or an active investigation check in 6 seconds, you can do both with an action surge.

Some persuasion checks [ACTION] can benefit from PC knowledge mid-conversation. When the DM says "You can make either a history or religion check [ACTION] to try and remember something quickly [TIME CONSTRAINT] to help you persuade the priest you mean well" others must choose one of those checks but you can make both checks with an action surge.

Chase [IMPLIED TIME CONSTAINT OR ELSE QUARRY GETS AWAY]: Where others can dash [ACTION] once per six seconds away from or after someone you can dash twice.

Any situation involving a quick [TIME CONSTRAINT] skill check[ACTION]. Normally when you blow a skill check in those time-sensitive situations, you're screwed...but not you, sometimes. You can blow a skill check and where appropriate spend an action surge and try it again or try an alternative skill check. Do you need to get into the room quick before the villian slays your friend? Attempt to pick the lock with a thieves tools check, and if that fails action surge to try and bash the door open with an athletics check.

An ally fell in rapids and was being swept towards a waterfall [TIME CONSTRAINT] (in Forge of Fury). Anyone near the shore down stream had one chance to try and grab our ally before he went over the falls[ACTION]...except my fighter. I tried, failed, action surged, and succeeded on my second try!

I'm saying that if you are in a situation where time constraints and order of actions are important then you are "in combat". Use the combat rules, including features like Action Surge.

Action Surge has no meaning "out of combat" because if you are "out of combat" then you are not tracking timing and order of actions.

It would be hard to use common language, or the DMG definition of Combat as ""when a fight breaks out.", and characterize most of those examples I gave as "combat". You can be out of combat, and also using actions with time constaints. And I am arguing you can use action surges in those situations, because action surge does not require combat.

 

[MaximusArael020]

I’m not really sure what an action surge looks like out of combat. It’s not that it can’t be done but I’m not sure what doing it looks like and how that differs from him not using the ability.

In general I’d say it can be used to save you time out of combat but defining more than that isn’t actually written.

One example I was thinking of is if a Fighter failed a Dex save while climbing or crossing a dangerous rock-bridge, etc, and started falling. They could use their Action Surge to try to grab onto the ledge again (basically re-roll the Save).

 

[FrogReaver]

In my opinion, Action Surge can be used out of combat. Here is the text, "Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action."

It says actions and turns, but then spells say the same thing (and yes I can quote plenty of places in the Spells section which mentions turns and actions)...but everyone agrees you can cast spells outside of combat as well, right? So by that logic, there should be no rule against using action surge out of combat in the appropriate situation.

What is the appropriate situation? Any encounter or challenge out of combat with a time constraint involved where normally the DM would ask the PC for their action. In such cases, a Fighter should be able to choose an action (like a skill check) and then action surge to apply a second action (like another skill check).

So what are some examples of out of combat challenges where action surge could help?

Here are some of mine.

1) Party is scaling a wall or cliff to enter a building and doing it quickly is of concern because they don't want to be spotted by the roving guards. Where others can climb 15 feet in 6 seconds, the fighter could climb 30 feat with an action surge.
2) The party ducks into the Count's bedroom during the ball to search for a key, and they have moments before they must leave or be caught. Where others can make either an active perception check or an active investigation check in 6 seconds, you can do both with an action surge.
3) Any sneaking: Where others can move 15 feet when sneaking, the fighter can move 30.
4) Some persuasion checks can benefit from PC knowledge mid-conversation. When the DM says "You can make either a history or religion check to try and remember something quickly to help you persuade the priest you mean well" others must choose one of those checks but you can make both checks with an action surge.
5) Chase: Where others can dash once per six seconds away from or after someone you can dash twice.
6) Any situation involving a quick skill check. Normally when you blow a skill check in those time-sensitive situations, you're screwed...but not you, sometimes. You can blow a skill check and where appropriate spend an action surge and try it again or try an alternative skill check. Do you need to get into the room quick before the villian slays your friend? Attempt to pick the lock with a thieves tools check, and if that fails action surge to try and bash the door open with an athletics check.
7) @Satyrn mentioned a situation that happened to me as well. An ally fell in rapids and was being swept towards a waterfall (in Forge of Fury). Anyone near the shore down stream had one chance to try and grab our ally before he went over the falls...except my fighter. I tried, failed, action surged, and succeeded on my second try!

What are some examples you can think of, and have you used Action Surge out of combat?

It seems to me that 1,3,5 are all just about extra movement. If action surge is really that good for out of combat situations because of extra movement I'd love to hear what you think of the rogues cunning action. Anyways the point is that extra movement out of combat can sometimes be very useful provided you are in a very time sensitive situation. That situation is pretty rare though IME.

I don't view 4 as something that action surge can ever help with.

I view 6 and as being very situational and game dependent as to whether action surge would actually help.

I view 2 as an additional time when action surge will help but in reality that situation seems very rare. Generally the check is used not to search the room for 6 seconds but to see if you can thoroughly search the room before anyone finds you there. In this more typical kind of check action surge wouldn't help.

So all in all the only universal time action surge helps out of combat is when you are under a time constraint and need to move further in a certain amount of time than you normally could. Everything else is very dependent on how the DM is running the skill check in question and also has such a 6 second time constraint that it's a very unusual example.

Honestly, it can be used out of combat but the situations it's going to come up in are going to be so rare that it really isn't something important enough to mention in any out of combat ability discussions. IMO.

 

[Mistwell]

It seems to me that 1,3,5 are all just about extra movement. If action surge is really that good for out of combat situations because of extra movement I'd love to hear what you think of the rogues cunning action.

I love Cunning Action. Super powerful and versatile. And nobody would question it has out of combat applications where movement is an issue, right?

Anyways the point is that extra movement out of combat can sometimes be very useful provided you are in a very time sensitive situation. That situation is pretty rare though IME.

I have not found it to be rare. Particularly since our DM loves to have smart foes flee and we often cannot keep up with them.

So all in all the only universal time action surge helps out of combat...

You don't need "universal" times for almost ANY out of combat ability in the game. Tables will vary, situations will vary, but abilities can "sometimes" help and that's all you need for it to be a "useful" out of combat ability. I mean, your objection is similar to "disguise self is very situational therefore not universally applicable". Well yes, but it's pretty well accepted it's a good spell for the situations it works and nobody has an issue with that application. But for some reason when it comes to action surge that's not good enough?

Honestly, it can be used out of combat but the situations it's going to come up in are going to be so rare that it really isn't something important enough to mention in any out of combat ability discussions. IMO.

You have 1) not tried it, and 2) have an opinion which runs contrary to numerous testimonials in this very thread. The situations are really not rare once you are looking for them and keep this use of Action Surge in mind - as the guy who was determined to use it like this (mentioned above) demonstrated. I really do think it takes a change of perspective. If you go in convinced it cannot help so why bother you won't notice when it could help and should be bothering.

 

[FrogReaver]

I love Cunning Action. Super powerful and versatile. And nobody would question it has out of combat applications where movement is an issue, right?



I have not found it to be rare. Particularly since our DM loves to have smart foes flee and we often cannot keep up with them.



You don't need "universal" times for almost ANY out of combat ability in the game. Tables will vary, situations will vary, but abilities can "sometimes" help and that's all you need for it to be a "useful" out of combat ability. I mean, your objection is similar to "disguise self is very situational therefore not universally applicable". Well yes, but it's pretty well accepted it's a good spell for the situations it works and nobody has an issue with that application. But for some reason when it comes to action surge that's not good enough?



You have 1) not tried it, and 2) have an opinion which runs contrary to numerous testimonials in this very thread. The situations are really not rare once you are looking for them and keep this use of Action Surge in mind - as the guy who was determined to use it like this (mentioned above) demonstrated. I really do think it takes a change of perspective. If you go in convinced it cannot help so why bother you won't notice when it could help and should be bothering.

A bunch of people mentioning one awesome time that you were able to make use of something out of combat that you normally can't and having it make a difference can still be true while having the times action surge is useful out of combat still be extradionarily rare.

You see the only time it's ever useful out of combat is when time is so pressured that you only have about 6 seconds to do something. The simple fact is that most out of combat situations happen on the order of minutes and hours and not 6 seconds and so action surge is rarely useful out of combat. Almost everthing in the game that happens out of combat doesn't ever get down to being measured in seconds. That's my issue with saying out of combat action surge is anything but extradionarily rare.

Do you really think I'm mistaken and that time pressure on the magnitude of mere seconds actually occurs often out of combat? If so I'd love to hear you expound on that.

 

[Mistwell]

A bunch of people mentioning one awesome time that you were able to make use of something out of combat that you normally can't and having it make a difference can still be true while having the times action surge is useful out of combat still be extradionarily rare.

You either 1) intentionally strawmanned, or 2) failed to read the thread you're claiming to have read. Well I suppose there could be 3) are either on ignore or yourself ignored a couple of key people posting to this thread. [Edit - one of the people who did post about it confirmed you do have them on ignore...so maybe it is #3]

Either 1 or 2 sucks. Please don't do that. If it's 3, well...not much to be done about that.

Do you really think I'm mistaken and that time pressure on the magnitude of mere seconds actually occurs often out of combat? If so I'd love to hear you expound on that.

I really think you are mistaken. I and a couple of others have expounded about it at length. You appear to have either not read much of it or handwaived it, followed by you asking people to expound on it.

 

[Sacrosanct]

You either 1) intentionally strawmanned, or 2) failed to read the thread you're claiming to have read. Well I suppose there could be 3) are either on ignore or yourself ignored a couple of key people posting to this thread.

Either 1 or 2 sucks. Please don't do that. If it's 3, well...not much to be done about that.



I really think you are mistaken. I and a couple of others have expounded about it at length. You appear to have either not read much of it or handwaived it, followed by you asking people to expound on it.

Well, he has me on ignore, so he never saw my post on the first page reiterating your OP with examples.

Seriously, AS is so good for sneaky types, it’s almost worth rogues taking fighter levels just to get it. Cunning action is limited to only a few things. AS allows another turn, basically.