D&D (2024) Ranged Builds Thread

By level 11 I'm confident saying you have enough resources to quicken pretty much every round as well as use a level 3 control spell once per short rest. That's when I think the sorlock and battlemaster actually break even. Though I think the battle master can outdo the sorlock at some levels still. Level 15 looks particularly impressive. Tons more control and damage per short rest period since gets a free d8 manuever per turn.
 

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Even something like a level 7 sorlock in a single encounter day with 4 rounds barely matches the Heavy Crossbow battlemaster in damage while maintaining similar levels of control. And it literally takes virtually all the sorclocks resources to accomplish that.
 




A few points in no particular order.
1. It doesn't matter what you 'can' do if you don't have the resources to do it often. That's the Sorlocks biggest problem. As you level that becomes less and less of a concern, but it doesn't even remotely get mitigated enough for a long time.
Well depends on what you mean by "long time". Battlemaster has the head start, though Hex helps warlock stay close.

Assuming...
3 Action surge = +3/6 attacks
archery style = +1/2 attack
+1 Dex = +2 attacks.
frighten = Web (including pushing into it)
Hex = +2/4 attacks
1 Sorcerer Point = 1 attack (Seeking Spell or Quicken)
You can’t trade Pact Magic for SP.


Warlock2/Sorcerer 2: 5 SP = 5 rerolls +2 Hex = 7 attacks
BM: 4 frightened and 6 attacks

W2/S 3: 11 SP = 2 Web + 7 attacks
BM: 4 frightened + 9 attack

W2/S4 4: 14 SP = 3 Web + 6 rerolls
BM 6: 10 frightened + 9 attacks

W2/S5 5: 23 SP = 3 Web + 17 rerolls
BM 7: 10 frightened + 9 attacks

And that's, IMO, where it pulls ahead.
Cloud of Daggers - EB makes 2 attacks at level 5 which is when the Sorlock can first pick up Cloud of Daggers. EB+Hex will do more damage than the level 2 slot of Cloud of Daggers.
That's assuming your alone. Get any ally to help, (grapple, Web, Push, Booming Blade) even once per encounter, and Cloud of Daggers will pull ahead.

But I agree it's not going to work all the time.

So 1 level 3 slot per short rest would roughly equal the battlemaster manuever control effect
I'd say Web (+ Push) is comparable. Locks their movment and they have disadvantage.

If you need 3rd level slots, then 11 sounds more like the break point.


Feel free to confirm those numbers with more detailed math.
And it literally takes virtually all the sorclocks resources to accomplish that.
And it takes all the BM resources too.
Also, you got 2 Warlock slots for Shield or whatever.
 
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Well depends on what you mean by "long time". Battlemaster has the head start, though Hex helps warlock stay close.

Assuming...
3 Action surge = +3/6 attacks
Agreed
archery style = +1/2 attack
No idea how you are getting this
+1 Dex = +2 attacks.
Or this
frighten = Web (including pushing into it)
Each enemy targeted by a spell that can prevent them from acting that provides a repeated save/attempt to end the condition is worth about 2 uses of frighten. The math on this is below.

Each use of frighten has a 60% chance to cause an enemy to lose a turn (you'll only use it when that's a possibility). Thus, 2x frightens will be 1.2 turns denied.

A use of a 60% reoccuring save spell will on average prevent 0.6 + 0.6*0.6 + 0.6*0.6*0.6 = 1.18 turns (in a 3 round fight) or 0.6 + 0.6*0.6 + 0.6*0.6*0.6 + 0.6*0.6*0.6*0.6 (in a 4 round fight) = 1.31.

As you can see, a single enemy targeted by a repeating save spell that denies actions will deny about as many as 2x frightens.

Then, I'd estimate a single level 2 spell can likely target 2 enemies (tasha's laughter is guaranteed to do so with a good effect).

In which case 1x web = 4x frightens. Except you need a web for each short rest and since you've given this fighter 2 based on the number of actions surges then that's 3x web's required to match up with 4 superiority dice all going to frighten over 2 short rests.

Hex = +2/4 attacks
Not sure how you are getting this
1 Sorcerer Point = 1 attack (Seeking Spell or Quicken)
Agreed.
You can’t trade Pact Magic for SP.
I forget about that restriction.

Warlock2/Sorcerer 2: 5 SP = 5 rerolls +2 Hex = 7 attacks
BM: 4 frightened and 6 attacks

W2/S 3: 11 SP = 2 Web + 7 attacks
BM: 4 frightened + 9 attack

W2/S4 4: 14 SP = 3 Web + 6 rerolls
BM 6: 10 frightened + 9 attacks

W2/S5 5: 23 SP = 3 Web + 17 rerolls
BM 7: 10 frightened + 9 attacks
There's way to much you are not accounting for in your methodology.

1. Each of your EB attacks is worth less than the battlemasters. This cascades to things like action surge and seeking/quicken. In which case either Action Surge should be worth more than 1 attack or seeking/quicken should be worth less than 1.

2. One obvious miss on your part is that you aren't accounting for the +18 damage provided by maneuver dice per short rest. Or for 2 short rests that's +54 damage. That alone is worth nearly 11 EB attacks.

3. It doesn't appear you are accounting for archery style being applied to action surge either, though that's probably only a bit more than 0.6 attacks.

4. Same thing for the +1 mod as for archery style.

And that's, IMO, where it pulls ahead.

That's assuming your alone. Get any ally to help, (grapple, Web, Push, Booming Blade) even once per encounter, and Cloud of Daggers will pull ahead.
Those things still have to connect and you have to compare the value of what your ally would have done without cloud of daggers to that.

I'd say Web (+ Push) is comparable. Locks their movment and they have disadvantage.
The effect is comparable enough, actually a bit better.

If you need 3rd level slots, then 11 sounds more like the break point.
I think by the time the battlemaster gets 5 manuever dice (level 7) then you either need an extra level 2 slot or some level 3 slots mixed in to break even on the control aspects. I mean you can load up on control options, so it's possible you may can target weak saves or hit more enemies than 2/3, etc, all of which may provide additional values to the spells in the comparison, but none of that is nearly a sure enough thing to add it directly in.

Feel free to confirm those numbers with more detailed math.
I'll go back and do a full pass on them.

And it takes all the BM resources too.
Yes. My point was that there wouldn't be much left for things like shield and etc.

Also, you got 2 Warlock slots for Shield or whatever.
In my initial assessment I was wrongly converting those to sorcery points. Since you can't do that then I'd probably need to add another sorcerer level. But yes, at that point you would have the resources to do everything and shield.
 
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Let's start with the sorc 2/warlock 2

To match the control of the Level 4 Battlemaster you need to use right at 2x tasha's laughter or similar per short rest (for our purposes i'm assuming there's 2 encounters per short rest, so 6 encounters total). That essentially means 1x tasha's laughter per encounter. If it lands then that's taking your concentration so no hex those encounters. Though enough are going to not land that you can use hex in those encounters after the attempt.

I'm going to assume 3 round combats this time (4 doesn't really change much). So the sorlock already has done 0 damage on 6 of his 18 rounds just to match the control ability of the battle master. You've got 12 rounds of attacking, 3 level 1 slots left, and 3 sorcery points. If you used your remaining slots on hex, you can potentially get 2 rounds of hex damage off with each slot (only 2 rounds left in each encounter) after the tasha's attempts. So 6 rounds of hex damage eats up your remaining slots. Then you have 3 sorcery points for rerolls. Note your EB does 4.95 DPR (assumed chance to hit at 55% due to the lower mod than normal). The attacks with hex do 7.05. I'll assume you reroll the hex attacks (you should have almost enough misses there to do so on average).

So for the Sorlock something like 6 hex attacks = 42.3
6 regular attacks = 29.7
3 hex rerolls = 21.2

Sorlock Total Damage (after matching battlemaster control) = 93.2

Now the battlemaster fighter will do
6.925 with an attack and he will have 18 rounds of attacks = 124.7
6.925 x3 with action surge = 20.8
+54 damage with superiority dice = 54

Battlemaster Total Damage = 199.4
 
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Now let's do the sorc 3/warlock 2

To match the control of the Level 4 Battlemaster you need to use 2x webs and 2x tashas (or you could convert points to another slot, but that's mostly going to be a wash). That also takes up 4 of your 18 actions, you still potentially have 18 bonus actions (you won't use all them at this level).

Your strategy was to use your control spells and then dump all your resources into seeking/quicken for more EB's.

Damage per beam = 4.95
Damage per EB = 9.9
Sorcery Points with 4 level 1 sorcerer spells, 3 sorcery points and 1 recovery = 8. You will have a few warlock slots left. Could definitely use hex in at least 2 battles.
Damage with hex per EB = 14.1
Assuming at least 1 Tasha's misses then you can also use a hex there for 2 rounds.
It seems reasonable that you can then use 1 quicken on no hex EB and the rest of the sorcery points on seeking on the hex attacks.

Hex EB rounds 8 at 14.1 = 112.8
Hex attack rerolls 6 at 7.05 = 42.3
Quicken non hex EB's 1 at 9.9 = 9.9
Non hex EB's 6 at 9.9 = 59.4

Total Sorlock Damage = 224.4

Now the battlemaster fighter will do
Attack Action 18 at 13.85 = 249.3
Action Surge 3 at 13.85 = 41.6
+54 damage with superiority dice = 54

Battlemaster Total Damage = 344.9
 
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Now let's do the sorc 4/warlock 2

To match the control of the Level 4 Battlemaster you need to use 3x webs. That also takes up 3 of your 18 actions, you still potentially have 18 bonus actions (you won't use all them at this level).

Your strategy was to use your control spells and then dump all your resources into seeking/quicken for more EB's.

Damage per beam = 6
Damage per EB = 12
Damage with hex per EB = 16.5
Damage with hex per EB reroll = 8.25

Sorcery Points with 4 level 1 sorcerer spells, 4 sorcery points and 2 from recovery = 10

Since Web's are targeting 2 enemies I don't assume they miss or that they end early enough to bother with hex.
That leaves 3 encounters of 3 rounds for hex so 9 total rounds. You only miss an average of 7.2 times with the 9 hex attacks so you will use 4 of your 10 sorcery points on non hex quicken EB. The remaining 6 go to hex eb rerolls with seeking.

Hex EB rounds 9 at 16.5 = 148.5
Hex attack rerolls 6 at 8.25 = 49.5
Quicken non hex EB's 2 at 12 = 24
Non hex EB's 6 at 12 = 72

Total Sorlock Damage = 294

Now the battlemaster (added GWM) fighter will do
Attack Action 18 at 18.05 = 324.9
Action Surge 3 at 18.05 = 54.2
+54 damage with superiority dice = 54

Battlemaster Total Damage = 433.1
 

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