D&D 5E Shield Mastery Feat

[KarinsDad]

The character spent a feat to get this ability, and chars without the feat can shove as an action. Would an acceptable reading not be: the shield master's shove can be regarded as a bonus action instead of a regular action if she also decides to attack that round?

Well, a given DM can rule however he wants.

But my issue with it is that the attack action might never be used at all in a round, but the bonus shove might be.

For example, the PC bonus action shoves his current foe away. He then moves towards a different foe, but gets Held with a Readied Hold Person, never reaching the second foe. He got to use the Shove as a bonus, but never actually got to do an attack action.

I would rule the same on Eldritch Knight War Magic. Cantrip goes off first which allows the bonus action of the weapon attack. Ditto here. Attack Action goes off first which allows the bonus action of the shove.

 

[smbakeresq]

It’s not that you get to “do” the attack action, it’s that you “took” the attack action. Once you declare that you are taking the attack action, you are locked into it, whether or not you get to complete it. Taking the action allows you to then take a bonus action for Shield Master.

 

[FrogReaver]

It’s not that you get to “do” the attack action, it’s that you “took” the attack action. Once you declare that you are taking the attack action, you are locked into it, whether or not you get to complete it. Taking the action allows you to then take a bonus action for Shield Master.

A declaration that you will take some action is not the same thing as taking that action.

 

[Sean Culligan]

I believe I summed up with the following, "Since a shove requires an attack role it can by itself initiate the attack action."

And to clarify here are the rules direct from the Player's Handbook on pages 192-195.

PHB192 - Actions in Combat
Attack - See "Making an Attack" section for rules that govern attacks.

PHB194 - Making an Attack
Melee Attacks (pg 195)
Shoving a Creature - Using the attack action you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature... If you're able to make multiple attacks with the attack action this attack replaces one of them.


Therefore a shove attack is part of the attack action. (The feat is giving you an extra bonus attack in the form of a shove as part of the attack action)

Let me say it again... The bonus shove IS the attack action...

The description of the feat requiring an attack action be taken is not incorrect, it is REDUNDANT!

 

[Azzy]

I believe I summed up with the following, "Since a shove requires an attack role it can by itself initiate the attack action."

And to clarify here are the rules direct from the Player's Handbook on pages 192-195.

PHB192 - Actions in Combat
Attack - See "Making an Attack" section for rules that govern attacks.

PHB194 - Making an Attack
Melee Attacks (pg 195)
Shoving a Creature - Using the attack action you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature... If you're able to make multiple attacks with the attack action this attack replaces one of them.


Therefore a shove attack is part of the attack action. (The feat is giving you an extra bonus attack in the form of a shove as part of the attack action)

Let me say it again... The bonus shove IS the attack action...

The description of the feat requiring an attack action be taken is not incorrect, it is REDUNDANT!

That is the most tortured attempt at "logic" I've seen all day. Congratulations.

 

[5ekyu]

Well, a given DM can rule however he wants.

But my issue with it is that the attack action might never be used at all in a round, but the bonus shove might be.

For example, the PC bonus action shoves his current foe away. He then moves towards a different foe, but gets Held with a Readied Hold Person, never reaching the second foe. He got to use the Shove as a bonus, but never actually got to do an attack action.

I would rule the same on Eldritch Knight War Magic. Cantrip goes off first which allows the bonus action of the weapon attack. Ditto here. Attack Action goes off first which allows the bonus action of the shove.

So let's look at your hold person example...

They shoved someone, then moved, got held mid-move and ended their turn...

How is that a "problem" if its "a shove action (bonus action) and move then turn interrupted" but not a problem if it were "a shove action (attack action) and move then turn interrupted"?


It's a net result of the same exact set of events in the game world with the same results but one is a problem due to the categories the events were put into being different?

To be clear, I am firmly in the camp that says you must use the attack action (at least one attack) before you earn the BA shove from that feat - but the example you give seems to be only a problem in a meta-sense without any in-game-world sense to it.

My in-game-world rationale is the attacks are what sets up the shove opening- it's a combo move - one sets up the other - but the reverse of what folks had wanted. So you cannot create the "opportunity" for the "quick shove" until you commit to the attacks - by doing them.

 

[Mistwell]

I believe I summed up with the following, "Since a shove requires an attack role it can by itself initiate the attack action."

And to clarify here are the rules direct from the Player's Handbook on pages 192-195.

PHB192 - Actions in Combat
Attack - See "Making an Attack" section for rules that govern attacks.

PHB194 - Making an Attack
Melee Attacks (pg 195)
Shoving a Creature - Using the attack action you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature... If you're able to make multiple attacks with the attack action this attack replaces one of them.


Therefore a shove attack is part of the attack action. (The feat is giving you an extra bonus attack in the form of a shove as part of the attack action)

Let me say it again... The bonus shove IS the attack action...

The description of the feat requiring an attack action be taken is not incorrect, it is REDUNDANT!

 

[Aaron L]

We've always allowed the Shove to come first, as that way you can actually gain a benefit from knocking the target to the ground and then attacking it with Advantage for being prone. Otherwise there wouldn't be much point to the effort as the target would just be able to stand up before you can attack on your next turn, robbing that function of the Feat of most of its utility. It always seemed pretty clear to all of us that that was the intention; you deck your target with your shield, and then hit it while it's on the ground, the way shields were commonly used in real life. Requiring you to Attack your target first and only then Shove it to the ground would be putting the cart before the horse and pretty much just be a waste of your Bonus Action.


If they had intended that you could only use the Shove after you Attacked, I really think they would have said "After you take the Attack action on your turn" not "If you take the Attack action on your turn." This isn't a programming "If, Then" statement requiring an order of operation; it's a statement that the actions happen during the round but not requiring an order.

 

[FrogReaver]

We've always allowed the Shove to come first, as that way you can actually gain a benefit from knocking the target to the ground and then attacking it with Advantage for being prone. Otherwise there wouldn't be much point to the effort as the target would just be able to stand up before you can attack on your next turn, robbing that function of the Feat of most of its utility. It always seemed pretty clear to all of us that that was the intention; you deck your target with your shield, and then hit it while it's on the ground, the way shields were commonly used in real life. Requiring you to Attack your target first and only then Shove it to the ground would be putting the cart before the horse and pretty much just be a waste of your Bonus Action.


If they had intended that you could only use the Shove after you Attacked, I really think they would have said "After you take the Attack action on your turn" not "If you take the Attack action on your turn." This isn't a programming "If, Then" statement requiring an order of operation; it's a statement that the actions happen during the round but not requiring an order.

And I think they would have said “you can use a bonus action to shove on your turn but after you do so you may take not do any other action than the attack action.” The timing is then clear and you don’t run into situations where you may not get to do the action that allows you to do the bonus action ( which is really the crux of the argument for why it only makes sense as a timing situation, you don’t have a bonus action to take until you’ve taken the attack action )

 

[Aaron L]

Well, a given DM can rule however he wants.

But my issue with it is that the attack action might never be used at all in a round, but the bonus shove might be.

For example, the PC bonus action shoves his current foe away. He then moves towards a different foe, but gets Held with a Readied Hold Person, never reaching the second foe. He got to use the Shove as a bonus, but never actually got to do an attack action.

I would rule the same on Eldritch Knight War Magic. Cantrip goes off first which allows the bonus action of the weapon attack. Ditto here. Attack Action goes off first which allows the bonus action of the shove.

I really don't see what the problem with that would be?