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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
As an aside: in games like Dungeon World and Traveller* (also maybe 4e?) there is no room for SYORTD, because their prescriptive rules cannot be ignored and already provide a range of different outcomes that change the ongoing fiction which again cannot be ignored (in a sense, these games might have already bolted-in the level of realism they want to provide)

On the other hand, old D&D was basically all Say Yes Or Roll: the dice to roll were those of Combat, in case the DM wasn't convinced of the players' alternative plans to it. (Here, your mileage may vary about realism)

Makes sense? (Real question)



*@pemerton, correct me if I'm wrong about Traveller and 4e

Huh? PbtA games are very much say yes or roll the dice style games. Can you explain why you think DW is incompatible with SYORTD?

And, while you could do syortd with OD&D, the anticipated play doesn't work well with that, as the dungeon was built and play was solving it -- not much room for say yes.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Hi Sadras. I don't get how would you resolve that situation with Say yes or roll the dice.
Say yes to what? Roll the dice for what?

That's kinda the point. The "Say yes or roll the dice" method of play wouldn't have worked with that sort of game circumstance.
 
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pemerton

Legend
old D&D was basically all Say Yes Or Roll: the dice to roll were those of Combat, in case the DM wasn't convinced of the players' alternative plans to it. (Here, your mileage may vary about realism)
I tend to agree with [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] about this - as a general rule classic wargaming/dungeon-crawling D&D doesn't support "say 'yes' or roll the dice", because the GM is meant to have already mapped and "stocked" the dungeon and uses that to regulate what gets introduced into the fiction without being obliged to allow a die roll if s/he doesn't just want to say "yes". And even if you wanted to play classic D&D in that way, it doesn't have the mechanical framework to support it - there's no general system of calling for checks.

I can see how classic D&D combat can be played in a "say 'yes' or roll the dice" fashion, though, and think that's an interesting take on it.

pemerton, correct me if I'm wrong about Traveller and 4e
4e D&D has two basic mechanical frameworks: combat, which in mechanical terms is highly structured; and non-combat, which in mechanical terms is very loose and based on either checks or skill challenges. (The skill descriptions in the PHB try to introduce some non-combat subsystems associated with particular skills, eg how much food can you get by foraging using your Nature skill, but as far as I can tell most successful 4e games ignore those subsystems as incompatible with the general spirit and best play of the game.)

Combat in 4e can have "say 'yes' or roll the dice" elements - eg if a player declares "I yell at the orc: surrender!" nothing obliges the GM to call for an Intimidate check as opposed to just have the orc surrender - but that isn't where it defaults to. Much more important for good 4e combat is framing rolls of the dice as an alternative to no - which requires good working intuitions around p 42, what are suitable trade-offs in terms of spending resources to generate consequences outside the formal "power" framework, etc.

Non-combat in 4e can very much be played in a "say 'yes' or roll the dice" fashion. (Once you ignore those poorly-conceived bit of the PHB skill descriptions, and instead focus on the DMG and DMG2 advice for non-combat resolution.) It works fairly well, but has much lower failure rates than (say) Burning Wheel which makes it much less gritty and less emotionally demanding on players.

Traveller I'll say something about below.

in games like Dungeon World and Traveller* (also maybe 4e?) there is no room for SYORTD, because their prescriptive rules cannot be ignored and already provide a range of different outcomes that change the ongoing fiction which again cannot be ignored (in a sense, these games might have already bolted-in the level of realism they want to provide)
I think the comparison of Classic Traveller to Dungeon World is an interesting one, because Traveller also has "moves" that - when they occur in the fiction - mandate the deployment of particular resolution subsystems. For instance, if a player declares (as his/her PC), "I'm hanging out at the bars etc hoping to meet a patron" then the next step is (i) to knock off a week of game time, and (ii) to make a patron encounter check. Likewise, if a player declares that s/he (as his/her PC) is performing some tricky manoeuvre while wearing a vacc-suit, then the rules prescribe the check (modified by Vacc Suit expertise) that needs to be made to avoid encountering some sort of difficulty (eg the last time that happened in our game, an oxygen hose got snagged on a rocky protrusion).

I think there are some differences from DW that are worth noting. Most obviously, the Traveller subsystems are all quite different from one another (in probabilities, in structuring outcomes, etc); and when they trigger a need for judgement it almost always goes back to the referee rather than the player (eg the referee decides what sort of difficulty results on a failed manoeuvring-in-vacc-suit check, although in practice of course the whole table might get to have input into that decision).

Another difference is that many of the triggers are much less clearly specified (not always: when your activate your starship's jump drive is a pretty clear trigger), which means the referee has a bit more latitude in calling for checks - and this can allow the intrusion of a degree of "saying 'yes'" in lieu of calling for checks.

And then there are some domains of activity - most obviously procurement - which are clearly expected to be part of the game (it's full of price lists and expenses and ways to make money) but which don't say what happens (eg have no associated subsystem) if the referee is not just inclined to "say 'yes'" - eg there's no subsystem for being able to obtain fuel at a starport if supplies are running low and so it's not just freely available to those who can afford it. The system as written tends to assume the GM will just make something up to adjudicate this if necessary, which gets closer to some of the standard tools of early D&D refereeing. Another similarity in that respect is the existence of subsystems which sit on the cusp between genuine action resolution and GM scene-framing tools - like the person encounter rules, which state that a check should be made every day, but also at least imply that the GM might curate the making and outcome of at least some of those checks.

The lack of clear "say 'yes' or roll the dice" in Traveller was one of the things that led me to post a bit over a year ago that Classic Traveller is a dice driven game.
 

S'mon

Legend
I tend to agree with [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] about this - as a general rule classic wargaming/dungeon-crawling D&D doesn't support "say 'yes' or roll the dice", because the GM is meant to have already mapped and "stocked" the dungeon and uses that to regulate what gets introduced into the fiction without being obliged to allow a die roll if s/he doesn't just want to say "yes". And even if you wanted to play classic D&D in that way, it doesn't have the mechanical framework to support it - there's no general system of calling for checks.

I can see how classic D&D combat can be played in a "say 'yes' or roll the dice" fashion, though, and think that's an interesting take on it.

4e D&D has two basic mechanical frameworks: combat, which in mechanical terms is highly structured; and non-combat, which in mechanical terms is very loose and based on either checks or skill challenges. (The skill descriptions in the PHB try to introduce some non-combat subsystems associated with particular skills, eg how much food can you get by foraging using your Nature skill, but as far as I can tell most successful 4e games ignore those subsystems as incompatible with the general spirit and best play of the game.)

Combat in 4e can have "say 'yes' or roll the dice" elements - eg if a player declares "I yell at the orc: surrender!" nothing obliges the GM to call for an Intimidate check as opposed to just have the orc surrender - but that isn't where it defaults to. Much more important for good 4e combat is framing rolls of the dice as an alternative to no - which requires good working intuitions around p 42, what are suitable trade-offs in terms of spending resources to generate consequences outside the formal "power" framework, etc.

Non-combat in 4e can very much be played in a "say 'yes' or roll the dice" fashion. (Once you ignore those poorly-conceived bit of the PHB skill descriptions, and instead focus on the DMG and DMG2 advice for non-combat resolution.) It works fairly well, but has much lower failure rates than (say) Burning Wheel which makes it much less gritty and less emotionally demanding on players.

Traveller I'll say something about below.

I think the comparison of Classic Traveller to Dungeon World is an interesting one, because Traveller also has "moves" that - when they occur in the fiction - mandate the deployment of particular resolution subsystems. For instance, if a player declares (as his/her PC), "I'm hanging out at the bars etc hoping to meet a patron" then the next step is (i) to knock off a week of game time, and (ii) to make a patron encounter check. Likewise, if a player declares that s/he (as his/her PC) is performing some tricky manoeuvre while wearing a vacc-suit, then the rules prescribe the check (modified by Vacc Suit expertise) that needs to be made to avoid encountering some sort of difficulty (eg the last time that happened in our game, an oxygen hose got snagged on a rocky protrusion).

I think there are some differences from DW that are worth noting. Most obviously, the Traveller subsystems are all quite different from one another (in probabilities, in structuring outcomes, etc); and when they trigger a need for judgement it almost always goes back to the referee rather than the player (eg the referee decides what sort of difficulty results on a failed manoeuvring-in-vacc-suit check, although in practice of course the whole table might get to have input into that decision).

Another difference is that many of the triggers are much less clearly specified (not always: when your activate your starship's jump drive is a pretty clear trigger), which means the referee has a bit more latitude in calling for checks - and this can allow the intrusion of a degree of "saying 'yes'" in lieu of calling for checks.

And then there are some domains of activity - most obviously procurement - which are clearly expected to be part of the game (it's full of price lists and expenses and ways to make money) but which don't say what happens (eg have no associated subsystem) if the referee is not just inclined to "say 'yes'" - eg there's no subsystem for being able to obtain fuel at a starport if supplies are running low and so it's not just freely available to those who can afford it. The system as written tends to assume the GM will just make something up to adjudicate this if necessary, which gets closer to some of the standard tools of early D&D refereeing. Another similarity in that respect is the existence of subsystems which sit on the cusp between genuine action resolution and GM scene-framing tools - like the person encounter rules, which state that a check should be made every day, but also at least imply that the GM might curate the making and outcome of at least some of those checks.

The lack of clear "say 'yes' or roll the dice" in Traveller was one of the things that led me to post a bit over a year ago that Classic Traveller is a dice driven game.

I always enjoy Pemerton's thoughts on 4e, and it's interesting to see Classic Traveller treated as a Dungeon World type game. :) Obviously it's unlikely Marc Miller was thinking in those terms - 'moves' - I'd say he was looking to simulate 'a science fiction odyssey to the distant worlds of the Galaxy' from a you-are-there immersive standpoint, and just made up whatever sub-systems looked helpful. D&D of that era had plenty of similar subsystems, eg Spying & Assassination in 1e DMG, or the Territory Development process in the 1e DMG, or the Escape & Evasion checks in various editions. I would probably include NPC reaction & morale checks, and hireling loyalty, in there too.
 

pemerton

Legend
I always enjoy Pemerton's thoughts on 4e
This takes me back to those glorious, heady days of Permertonian scene-framing!

D&D of that era had plenty of similar subsystems, eg Spying & Assassination in 1e DMG, or the Territory Development process in the 1e DMG, or the Escape & Evasion checks in various editions. I would probably include NPC reaction & morale checks, and hireling loyalty, in there too.
I agree AD&D has a lot of subsystems, many I suspect underused and underappreciated. To Spying as a means of information-gathering can be added sages (whose subsystem is hidden in the NPC hireling tables).

But many of the AD&D subsystems are quite clunky as written, and - at least in my experience with them, which is not extensive for some but is reasonably extensive for others - often quite clunky in play also. Part of the genius of Classic Traveller, in my view, is how playable it is for a sub-system heavy game.

Another part of its genius is its relative comprehensiveness - there is the procurement gap I mentioned, and over the past year or so I've often lamented that it's onworld exploration rules are pretty terrible, but it covers a lot of stuff in its 3 books. Relative to genre, it is (in my view) far more comprehensive than AD&D despite the latter's much greater page size and page count.

I think it would be much harder to play AD&D as DW-like than Classic Traveller. (Though if anyone has tried and succeeded, it would be interesting to hear about it!)
 

S'mon

Legend
2ubxt6.jpg
 

S'mon

Legend
But many of the AD&D subsystems are quite clunky as written, and - at least in my experience with them, which is not extensive for some but is reasonably extensive for others - often quite clunky in play also. Part of the genius of Classic Traveller, in my view, is how playable it is for a sub-system heavy game.

I think games like Traveller and Runequest reacted against D&D's ethos of "We made up some :):):):) we thought would be fun" with a much stronger emphasis on world simulation, with the aim of greater immersion. They are less 'gamey' than D&D - both in the sense of less emphasis on "What would be Fun?" and also less emphasis on player challenge & victory conditions. This tangentially leads in Traveller's case to the result you experienced.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
As an aside: in games like Dungeon World and Traveller* (also maybe 4e?) there is no room for SYORTD, because their prescriptive rules cannot be ignored and already provide a range of different outcomes that change the ongoing fiction which again cannot be ignored (in a sense, these games might have already bolted-in the level of realism they want to provide)

On the other hand, old D&D was basically all Say Yes Or Roll: the dice to roll were those of Combat, in case the DM wasn't convinced of the players' alternative plans to it. (Here, your mileage may vary about realism)
Old D&D was and still is a combination of Say Yes, or Roll the Dice, or Say No.

I just don't understand why and how the idea of Saying No has become so unpopular.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
Huh? PbtA games are very much say yes or roll the dice style games. Can you explain why you think DW is incompatible with SYORTD?

And, while you could do syortd with OD&D, the anticipated play doesn't work well with that, as the dungeon was built and play was solving it -- not much room for say yes.
My point is that SayYesOrRoll is Not meant for New Content introduction by the players, but only for action declaration & resolution.
So, in DW, if a Pc says she wants to convince a big Npc to do something (for example), the Gm can't just say yes, but instead has to make the Pc roll Parley and follow the result of the check.

In DW there's no roll to be made for new content intro by Pcs. The Gm decides and that's it.
(Of course DW tells the Gm to ask the players questions and build on the answers, but that's a completely different story)

On Od&d: no content intro by Pcs as well. If I'm playing B4-The Sunken Pyramid and encounter the spirit of Demetrius on floor level 2, the purpose is not just to kill him and gain PX. If I declare how I try to bring him on my side instead of fighting him, the Dm says Yes or we all Roll dice and enter the system resolution for the encounters (Combat...)
 

S'mon

Legend
This takes me back to those glorious, heady days of Permertonian scene-framing!

BTW it seems to me that since 2013 the Pemertonian approach (eg GM-determined in media res scene start, player-determined open scene resolution) has had a good deal of influence on the hobby. I'm running 5e Primeval Thule (published 2013-16) currently, and it seems deliberately set up to support this style very well. It's also visible in the structure of the 5e WotC adventure books (published 2014-present). Whereas Paizo AP stuff (2007-present) seems to have stuck with the '90s linear-railroad approach, which may be the only way to keep the 6-book-AP format viable. I guess they stick to what they know.
 

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