A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Are you determined to ignore the fact that the GM is irrelevant here. Any player can suggest a house rule and have others agree to it. The GM is nothing special in this regard.

You are asserting that the GM has some special status and power in this respect, which is simply not true.

No. I don't care how you individuate games. My point is the above: that any player of any game can ask others to accept a house rule or variation that s/he proposes. This is an obvious point. It reveals nothing distinctive about RPGs, nor about the role of GMs in RPGing.

So there is some truth there, and some falsehood.

First, the truth. Players can suggest a house rule. Now the falsehood. The DM is nothing special in that regard. Before I get into the scenarios, let me once again say that 9 times out of 10 I get player input into the house rules I would like to put into place, or sit down with the players and discuss the kind of rule we want to have to fix the issue we are having. That said...

Let's examine some scenarios.

Scenario #1: The DM walks in and says that he has decided on a house rule that says it will take half as much exp to level as the book says.

Result: The house rule gets added into the game.

Scenario #2: The players suggest that they want it to take half as much exp to level, but the DM disagrees.

Result: The house rules does not get added into the game.

Now, you might say, "But the players can just leave the game and go somewhere else." This is true, but they won't have a house rule when they get there, UNLESS one of them decides to become a DM and then approves the house rule, but then you have the DM being the one to put the house rule into place. On the other hand, even if the players leave, the DM will have his house rule in place and will just find other players to play the game as he house ruled it.

Only the DM can put a house rule into place. The players have no authority to do so, regardless of how many house rules they come forward with. The DM and players are simply not equal in this regard UNLESS the DM himself chooses to make them equal, and then only for so long as he wants that equality in place.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
5e D&D doesn't state clear principles like DW (I state the edition deliberately, because 4e D&D does have generally clear principles that aren't wildly different from DW) - but for that very reason there is no rule or principle in 5e D&D that precludes a GM from having regard to player interest and desire in deciding what new content to introduce.

No preclusion does not mean inclusion, though. Since there is no rule saying that the DM has to regard player interest, he doesn't HAVE to. He SHOULD give regard to player interests, but it just isn't required. The extent of that regard is up for debate, though, and I suppose depends on the extent that the players want to decide what new content to introduce and how.

In my game, when it comes to PC background, I will often ask the players to give me details on important NPCs and locations such as the town they are from. They can create quite a bit in that limited area. When it comes to actual game play, they get to determine new content mostly by dictating through their PCs actions and goals which way the campaign is going.

In one campaign of mine, I had a story involving demon possession whose frequency was growing to the point that soon demons would openly be arriving in cities and attacking people and places. This abyssal incursion was very serious. The players like me to come up with these sorts of stories, but being a sandbox game, they are not obligated to go with it. In this case, the PCs decided that they didn't want to have anything to do with the attacks and not being the nicest of PCs, decided to try their hand at piracy. I immediately shifted focus from the demon story to piracy, because that's the direction the players decided things were going in.

They directed the content of the campaign by shifting the focus from demons to piracy. The demon storyline kept going on its own, and the PCs crisscrossed it a few times, but they weren't involved in it as main players.

Other players might want to be much more involved with content creation.

And I think that is the underlying context for [MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION]'s question - given that nothing in D&D obliges a GM to disregard player interest and desire in introducing new content; and given that at least some D&D players might want a GM who is introducing new content to have regard to their interests and desires in respect of the developing fiction; what are your thoughts on a GM who nevertheless proceeds from time-to-time without having such regard?

See above. Depending on the extent of the players' content creation desires, the DM should or should not allow it, depending on what will be fun for him. If his fun and the players' fun cannot do not coincide at all, they should go their separate ways and find players(for the DM) and a DM(for the players) whose playstyle matches their own.
 

This isn't a style of play, though. It's the DM being a jerk, which isn't a matter of playstyle or rules. It's simply a DM being one of the relatively few bad DMs that exist within the hobby.

It would not surprise me if there are a lot more groups that play this way than you think. That to me, makes it a playstyle. A bad one, but a playstyle none the less.

I'm confused by this example. If the x-wing was stationary(not moving) how would you pilot it? Piloting involves movement, not stationary. If you were asking to pilot it slowly across the hanger for some reason and he told you no outright, then that's an example of bad DMing, not a playstyle or ruleset being Mother May I.

It was parked in a hangar. Nothing was preventing me from getting into the cockpit and starting the engines. But this DM had everything planned out that he wanted to happen, and the players grabbing his decorative X-wings and bailing was not part of that plan. Not only did he railroad the campaign, but his playstyle meant blocking our actions at every turn. He would arbitralily tell us our actions failed, because it is not what he intended.
 

pemerton

Legend
Let's examine some scenarios.

Scenario #1: The DM walks in and says that he has decided on a house rule that says it will take half as much exp to level as the book says.

Result: The house rule gets added into the game.
Alternative result: the players say Not on your nellie! and so the GM withdraws his/her suggestion for a house rule.

Scenario #2: The players suggest that they want it to take half as much exp to level, but the DM disagrees.

Result: The house rules does not get added into the game.
Alternative result: the GM says OK and so the rule changes as the player suggested.

All you have here are examples of social negotiation. They show us nothing about the power of a GM in the play of a RPG.

Now, you might say, "But the players can just leave the game and go somewhere else." This is true, but they won't have a house rule when they get there, UNLESS one of them decides to become a DM and then approves the house rule, but then you have the DM being the one to put the house rule into place.
And if the players leave, the GM won't have a house rule UNLESS s/he gets some new players who will approve it.

Because all you are describing is social negotiation, the situations of the participants are - from a formal point of view - completely symmetrical. (I say "from a formal point of view" because it may be that some one participant is more charismatic, influential etc than the others and hence, as a matter of substance, has more sway over the group's decisions.)

Another way to look at it is that choosing to play with a house rule is no different from choosing to play (say) AD&D rather than Runequest. It's not a choice that can be made unilaterally. Everyone has to agree to sit down and play that game.

even if the players leave, the DM will have his house rule in place and will just find other players to play the game as he house ruled it.
And the players will just find another GM to run the game they want to play! Again, this is all just social interaction. None of it is about game play, or the allocation of authority in gameplay.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Sure, but that's also exceptionally rare, and once you leave that realm it's no longer "Mother May I." When you get a DM denying player actions mildly or even moderately, it's no longer a "Mother May I" situation. It's a Railroad. I've seen about threeish DMs over the last 36 years who acted that way.

Not necessarily, although it may also be a railroad.

I think there are likely 3 broad categories here, which could likely be broken down a bit more, but for the sake of this discussion it makes sense to keep it at 3. Three categories of GM Driven games. The first is an acceptable level of GM Authority. I think this is the way D&D and similar games are typically expected to run. The second is a game where the GM has too much authority and exercises it inconsistently. The third type is somewhere in between the first two.

Obviously, everyone is going to hate the second type, so it’s not even worth discussing beyond that. The third type is the gray area where opinions are going to vary. And I think this is the type of game most are trying to discuss. And you try to shift to talking about the second type.

[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] said it straight out multiple times. He said that D&D was "Mother May I", because the DM has the ability to stop or allow all player actions, so even if the DM doesn't exercise that power, it's "Mother May I." Nevermind that the DM doesn't actually have that authority from the books.

“Has the ability to...but doesn’t always exercise that power” is exactly what is being talked about. Again, it’s not about the tyrant DM.

What kind of player introduction are we talking about? If it's the creation of a place or NPC, that's not the player's job in D&D, so saying no isn't "Mother May I" or Railroading. It's simply playing a traditional game. If you're talking about introducing part of the PC's personality or something that the player has control of, then saying no is usually going to be bad.

Well, this can vary. I do allow player creation of places or NPCs in my D&D game. But that’s a bit of a departure from what’s expected in the game. And there are obviously many other RPGs that function that way.

So the answer to the question depends on the system you’re playing and also how yoi’re playing it.

You’re obviously approaching the discussion with D&D in mind, so NPC or location creation and similar elements require DM approval. Correct?

So none of your PCs has ever been out for revenge against some villain that the player came up with? None of your players has never come up with family members for their PC?

Or do you restrict player introduced content only once play has actually begun?

Sure, but this isn't a problem with the system. It's an issue of two people enjoying different playstyles in the first example above, and the DM probably making a mistake in the second.

It’s not a problem with the system, I agree. Any game system has a desired outcome, so if play proceeds accordingly, then the system is working as intended. What we’re talking about is more an issue of a mismatch of system expectation and player expectation.

So in the original OP of the thread that birthed this one, a GM said he wanted to engage a player by allowing the player to introduce content in such a way as to not require GM approval. He asked for ways to go about, suggestions on how other games have done it or techniques people have used in their own game.

Sure, which is why people play different games.

Or they play a game differently.
 

pemerton

Legend
It was parked in a hangar. Nothing was preventing me from getting into the cockpit and starting the engines. But this DM had everything planned out that he wanted to happen, and the players grabbing his decorative X-wings and bailing was not part of that plan. Not only did he railroad the campaign, but his playstyle meant blocking our actions at every turn. He would arbitralily tell us our actions failed, because it is not what he intended.
I don't want to speak too harshy about a situation that you were part of and I (obviously enough) was not - but why participate in this game for more than the session or so it took to work this out? What you're talking about here isn't RPGing, it's just sitting there listening to the GM tell his Star Wars story. Which is unlikely to be as good as one you'll find in a comic or a film, simply because most professional storytellers are better than most amateurs.

To me, this seems like the other side of [MENTION=6972053]Numidius[/MENTION]'s bathtime coin: we have bathtime GMs who just leave the PCs hanging with no fiction for the players to engage with; and on the other side we have GMs who have already prewritten all the ficiton so still there is - for practical purposes of playing an RPG - no fiction for the players to engage with.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It would not surprise me if there are a lot more groups that play this way than you think. That to me, makes it a playstyle. A bad one, but a playstyle none the less.

I disagree of course. Being a bad DM is not a playstyle, not matter how many groups suffer through them. Not that it's very many relative to the number of groups that play.

It was parked in a hangar. Nothing was preventing me from getting into the cockpit and starting the engines. But this DM had everything planned out that he wanted to happen, and the players grabbing his decorative X-wings and bailing was not part of that plan. Not only did he railroad the campaign, but his playstyle meant blocking our actions at every turn. He would arbitralily tell us our actions failed, because it is not what he intended.

This was a bad DM. It's that simple. A DM who was mediocre or better would have let you make the attempt.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
(1) Notice that I didn't say that exploration is a problem. I said that I think it is obvious how the following might be a problem: a player who is hoping to change the fiction, by way of an action declaration for his/her PC, discovers - in virtue of how the GM approaches adjudication that s/he is really exploring the fiction.

The risk of such a problem is not obviated by pointing out that exploration is a "key pillar" of the game.
The risk? No. That it's a problem at all? Yes.

Here's a trite illustration of the point: drinking water is a key pillar of human existence. But it might be a problem if every time you go to eat some food, or drink some beer, or . . ., you find yourself drinking water instead.
Not quite. Closer to the point here would be a situation where you go to drink some water and find it's tainted, or is in fact vodka or gin.

Here's a slightly less trite illustration: if a player is setting out to do something in a different "pillar", and discovers by way of unanticipated GM adjudication that s/he is really exploring, then s/he might feel surprised or even disappointed.
As would the PC; and this is perfectly fine. Same way I'd feel if I took a swig of water only to find I'd just downed a mouthful of Gilbey's Finest London Dry: I don't like gin, and so I'd be both surprised and disappointed...and probably a bit annoyed too.

What was my mistake? Not sniffing the "water" first...i.e. not fully enough exploring my surroundings before interacting with them.

(2) The idea of pillars of exploration, combat and social is actually distinctive to some versions of D&D.

It doesn't generalise to Traveller, in which making a FTL jump is a moment of action resolution that is neither fighting nor talking but is not exploration. It requires various rolls to avoid misjump, drive failure and the like.
Regardless, after the jump you're going to be somewhere you weren't before - a place which you either know through previous exploration or don't know and thus will probably want to explore - even if such exploration consists only of looking out the window (and-or checking the sensors) to see what's around you before jumping again to somewhere else.

It doesn't generalise to Burning Wheel, in which chasing someone or buying something can be a moment of action resolution no different in basic mechanical structure from fighting or talking, but obviously neither.
Actively chasing someone usually falls under combat; surreptitiously following someone would be more in the exploration side. Buying something falls under social. That the game has specific mechanics for these things doesn't deny the pillars are present.

Come to think of it, I wonder if you can name anything a PC might do or try to do within the fiction of an RPG that doesn't fall under one or more of the four pillars including downtime?

It doesn't generalise to 4e D&D, which has two basic pillars - combat and non-combat (skill challenges) - and the latter can be used to adjudicate social interaction, crossing a desert, altering or dispelling a magical phenomenon, etc.
4e does kinda take two pillars and shove 'em into one, but when looked at more closely each thing within the one can be broken out. Social interaction = social (obviously!); crossing a desert = exploration. Altering or dispelling a magical phenomenon = some situationally-dependent mix of combat and exploration if done under duress, and quite possibly downtime if done in the safety of town.

This all rests on very strong assumptions about how RPGing works. I'm sure they're true for how you play D&D. They're clearly not true for (say) Dungeon World played by the book.

To elaborate: the most common way that the players in my games learn the parameters of their in-fiction surrounding is by asking and being told.
This is likely true almost universally, as far as it goes. But it's only half the picture...

That is, they don't declare actions with the intention of having the outcome being narration of fiction; they (as players, not as their PCs) ask me and I tell them.
So they never declare any action on the basis of "let's try this and see if it works"? No trial-and-error, intentional or otherwise?

The other half of the picture is, of course, hidden information that the PCs (and thus players) can't know until they discover it, sometimes the hard way. The no-teleport zone would be like this, as would be the gin-water. Or do you flat-out tell them if they ask (and even if they don't?) it's a no-fly zone even if the PCs have no way of knowing?

Sometimes this has collaborative dimensions, in the sense that together we establish the parameters of the fiction.

In our last Traveller session, for instance, through asking and telling and working together we established fiction about Imperial Marines insignia, the player of an ex-Marine established some details about salutes and signals, we referred to rulebooks to ascertain exactly how battle dress (a type of powered armour works), I described to the players the existence of force-field type technology that is used to maintain heat in open-air areas on the icy-cold world the PCs are currently on, etc. None of this took the form of exploration in the D&D sense of delcaring actions like "I prod it with a 10' pole". It was all about establising and sharing backstory and establishing clear framing of current situations.
No, but it all fell under the exploration pillar in terms of learning about the setting and how things work there.

Another way the fiction in my games is established is as the outcome of action declarations. In a BW session, this was how it was established that a sick-room contained a chamber pot (a player made a successful Perception check to notice a vessel in the room). In a Cortex+ Heroic session, this was how it was established that some runic inscriptions described the dungeon layout (because a player declared an action to eliminate his PC's Lost in the Dungeon complication, using the Runic Inscrptions Scene Distinction as a component of his dice pool for this action).

Yet another way is because players make checks that oblige me to make up new fiction. This is a part of Dungeon World - you'll recall the discussions upthread of the Discern Realities and Spout Lore moves, which - if successful - oblige the GM to provide the player with certain bits of information:

Spout Lore
When you consult your accumulated knowledge about something, roll+Int. ✴On a 10+, the GM will tell you something interesting and useful about the subject relevant to your situation. ✴On a 7–9, the GM will only tell you something interesting—it’s on you to make it useful.

Discern Realities
When you closely study a situation or person, roll+Wis. ✴On a 10+, ask the GM 3 questions from the list below. ✴On a 7–9, ask 1. Either way, take +1 forward when acting on the answers.

• What happened here recently?
• What is about to happen?
• What should I be on the lookout for?
• What here is useful or valuable to me?
• Who’s really in control here?
• What here is not what it appears to be?​

It's taken for granted in DW that that information won't have been pre-established - the GM is expected to make it up on the spot, building on what has gone before and the current dynamic of play (including previous "soft moves" made by the GM) - [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] have discussed the details of this technique upthread.
Those are still all exploration, regardless of the mechanics used. D&D Bards have a Legend Lore ability that sounds quite similar to the Spout Lore noted above; and well over 95% of the time when a Bard in my game succeeds with Legend Lore I'm immediately making stuff up on the fly (they chuck LL at some of the strangest things :) ) so I can narrate the information obtained.

Information gathering of any kind is exploration. Occasionally combat might enter into it (see: torture), and far more often social enters into it (when you get the info from another person or entity in the fiction), but it's always exploration at the root.

Similar things happen in my Traveller game, though in Classic Traveller it is mostly less formally structured.

In the first session, after the PCs had been briefed by their patron, one of the players was suspicious because the whole thing didn't make much sense:

...

For the character in the fiction, of course that's all about figuring out what is going on. But for the player, given that I am approaching my Traveller game in a DW-type spirit rather than a "secret backstory" spirit, it's about using action declarations to force the referee to provide more detail in the framing, thus providing the player with more fictional "levers" on which to hang action declarations.

And notice that this is the player doing this. (Just as, in DW, it is a player who triggers Discern Realities or Spout Lore.) Which relates back to the first part of my reply - my response as referee conformed to the players intentions in declaring the action (ie forcing the GM to enrich the framing to provide more fictional levers).
And in these instances the player is simply trying to mirror the character, which is great.

You aren't always going to describe every last little feature of a scene and nor is anyone else. Players can (1) ask for more (or more specific) info, or they can (2) declare actions that'll get them the info. Either way, for better or worse they should end up learning more; and in many cases it'll take a bit of both (1) and (2) to fully suss out a scene or situation.

The difference with (2) here is that it might draw out information that simple observation (1) can't get - as in the no-fly zone or the gin-water. For example asking you to give a more detailed description of the items on the desk will get me that, and I can in theory drill down (within reason, of course) until I'm satisfied; but it'll still take the action declaration of "I cast Detect Magic" to pull that one of the four otherwise ordinary-looking dust-covered quills on the desk is enchanted.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Alternative result: the players say Not on your nellie! and so the GM withdraws his/her suggestion for a house rule.

Alternative result: the GM says OK and so the rule changes as the player suggested.

You know what those alternatives have in common? They rely on DM authority. The DM can in fact decide to go with the wishes of the players. That's his decision. The players cannot force the DM to accept their wishes. They have no power to do so.

And if the players leave, the GM won't have a house rule UNLESS s/he gets some new players who will approve it.

The DM has a house rule whether he has players or not. He has the house. He has the game. The rules of the game are changed. It won't do him much good without players, but the house rule exists.

Another way to look at it is that choosing to play with a house rule is no different from choosing to play (say) AD&D rather than Runequest. It's not a choice that can be made unilaterally. Everyone has to agree to sit down and play that game.

And the players will just find another GM to run the game they want to play! Again, this is all just social interaction. None of it is about game play, or the allocation of authority in gameplay.

So then Player May I is a thing? If the DM doesn't have the authority, because the players can do as they wish, then it's Player May I, not Mother May I.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Are you determined to ignore the fact that the GM is irrelevant here. Any player can suggest a house rule and have others agree to it. The GM is nothing special in this regard.

You are asserting that the GM has some special status and power in this respect, which is simply not true.

No. I don't care how you individuate games. My point is the above: that any player of any game can ask others to accept a house rule or variation that s/he proposes. This is an obvious point. It reveals nothing distinctive about RPGs, nor about the role of GMs in RPGing.
Well, actually the GM does have some special status in that if she rejects the suggestion and doesn't add it in to the game there's nothing the players can really do about it.

A GM can always say 'no' to something she doesn't want to run or doesn't want in the game. An obvious case is whether or not a particular GM will allow a particular expansion book for the in-use game system - if the GM don't want it, it don't happen.

This also applies to elements within the fiction. My own example is that I pull out the smackdown hammer if-when PCs try to get involved in macro-economics and trade and stocks and futures and buy-low-sell-high and compound interest rather than adventuring (which one of my players in particular would looooove to do on the meta-level): I've flat-out said a long time ago that if they want to do this crap then they'll have to find someone else to DM it, 'cause I ain't gonna. :)
 

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