Sage Advice Compendium Update 1/30/2019

Asgorath

Explorer
The tweet is about how you can tell if you've completed an action. RAW you have to finish the whole action to complete it. RAI for the Attack action, though, is that one attack completes it. This has implications for Shield Master of course, but does not itself address the RAI for the timing of bonus actions with conditions.

To each their own, but it's just astounding to me that you can look at the sum total of JEC's tweets (and Sage Advice videos etc) on this subject since 2017 and conclude that the intent is bonus actions with conditions can happen any time you like.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994997405492772864

"It's supposed to be what it is: a way to knock someone prone after your attack. It's essentially a finishing move."

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995043696251842561

"If the existence of X is the condition for the existence of Y, X comes before Y."

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995069135905161216

"In 2017, I changed the ruling on bonus action timing because the old ruling was illogical. The original ruling failed to account for the fact that X relying on Y is a form of timing. The new ruling corrects that oversight."

Did he just need to use the word "intent" in one of those tweets or something?
 

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epithet

Explorer
Did you read the part where I quoted that SA is, in fact, official rulings now? It is new, so maybe you missed it. Here, I'll show you:
...
Of course, as the bottom says and has been pointed out, a DM can always ignore them, just as a DM can choose to not use any rule or change them. Nothing new there.

Do you know what "official rulings" means? It means that whatever is in the Sage Advice Compendium supersedes any advice offered on Twitter. That's it. That's the only significance--the SAC should be taken as the definitive recommendation, as opposed to "public statements of the D&D team." It does NOT mean that the Sage Advice is elevated to the level of rules, or that Jeremy's suggested ruling applies to anyone's game. It is still nothing but a suggestion, and if you follow the Sage Advice in your game, it is YOUR ruling, because the only one who can make a ruling in your game is YOU (assuming you are the DM.) Jeremy cannot rule on your game, that's not how it works.

If a DM makes a different ruling on a published rule than what Jeremy suggests in his advice, that is not a house rule. A house rule only happens when a DM implements a new rule, or strikes a published rule from his game. As an example, the statement that "if x, you can y does not impose a timing requirement and therefore the bonus action y can be executed whenever the player chooses during his character's turn" is a ruling on applying the published rule. By contrast, the statement that "the Shield Master shove doesn't require the Attack action in my game" is a house rule, because it is changing the rules of the game, not interpreting them.

Here's an easy way to know which is which: if it is something that Jeremy can change his mind about, it is a ruling and not a rule. The only way to change the rule is with errata, that changes the actual words of the text and not just what you think those words mean.

Every single item in the Sage Advice Compendium refers to a rule that can be interpreted more than one way. That is why JEC has offered advice on that item--to tell people which of those possible interpretations he suggests adopting. If there is zero ambiguity in a rule, there is no need to offer advice on how to interpret it.

The "official rulings" designation serves only to try to address any possible confusion that might arise when a DM is looking for advice on how to rule on a situation and finds conflicting statements from Jeremy. Should I follow this tweet, or the the other tweet? Whatever is in the pdf is "officially" Jeremy's current recommendation for interpreting the rules in question.

Jeremy Crawford is not trying to make an "official ruling" for your game, that's your job. He can't do it! Every game and every group is different, and you'll note that Jeremy never says that everyone should follow his advice and implement his rulings. What he's trying to do with Sage Advice is to offer an internally consistent set of guidelines for people who need guidance. He can't tell you what's best for your game, he can only try to provide a generally applicable and consistent baseline. That's why, for example, even in the Adventurer's League, where the game is tightly constrained to the published rules and a DM's house rules are not permitted, the DM is expressly not required to follow the rulings in Sage Advice.

The bottom of your clipping from the Sage Advice Compendium, by the way, does not say that "a DM can choose to not use any rule or change them." Obviously the DM does have that ability, but that's not what the Sage Advice Compendium says. It say the DM "determines whether to use an official ruling," not a rule. Rulings and rules are not the same. A ruling is an interpretation of a rule, not a change to the rule itself, and an interpretation of the published rule, regardless of whether Jeremy Crawford, you, Max, or Joe Pesci agree with it, is not a house rule.
 

epithet

Explorer
I think you are overstating the case.

As of January the defined role of SAC is official rulings on the rules for D&D.

So, it is a set of official [insert synonym de jour] clarifications to the rules of D&D.

Of course SAC, like every rule in the PHB, is subject to the overall "DM decides the rules for their game".

That said, honestly, the difference between *house rule* and *gm ruling* seems just to be one of importance aesthetically. I try and divide them in my game only as a *highlight* - so that things which change directly the printed rules are house rules and called out (spending HD when healing, removing massive damage death, multi-saves added to many effects). This is different from cases where I have specific rulings and "ways I will rule" that are likely to not be as overtly impactful. (Obviously anything chargen is highest priority.)

You may choose to see SAC as just some advice, like it's a guy at the hobby store waxing on about how stealth and climbing should interact... but its given a better defined (now) place and more official status than that in very many cases.

Honestly, you're not wrong for my game or for me as a DM. I have no hesitation to take a rule from a different edition or a different game and adapt it to my 5e campaign, or to house rule something to work better for my group. There are other DMs for whom it seems to be a big deal, though, and I think the distinction needs to be preserved. Some DMs, especially new ones who haven't played other editions or other TTRPGs, really seem to feel as though they should cleave to the rules and not go off the reservation, and others (perhaps those involved in the Adventurer's League) are constrained by the terms of their particular game groups.

Another problem I see, and the thing that has kept me active in this "flogging a dead griffin" thread, is the emergence of an attitude that Jeremy's Sage Advice represents the "right way" to interpret the rules and play the game. There is no one right way that works for everyone, and I really think Jeremy's use of the "official" designation will cause more harm than good, creating the sort of confusion we're seeing in the post to which I was responding in the text you quoted.

Edit: Also, it is important to note that the SAC is not at all like "every rule in the PHB," because it doesn't contain any rules at all. It's all rulings, which we've clearly seen are subject to Jeremy changing his mind about.
 
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epithet

Explorer
To each their own, but it's just astounding to me that you can look at the sum total of JEC's tweets (and Sage Advice videos etc) on this subject since 2017 and conclude that the intent is bonus actions with conditions can happen any time you like.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994997405492772864

"It's supposed to be what it is: a way to knock someone prone after your attack. It's essentially a finishing move."

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995043696251842561

"If the existence of X is the condition for the existence of Y, X comes before Y."

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995069135905161216

"In 2017, I changed the ruling on bonus action timing because the old ruling was illogical. The original ruling failed to account for the fact that X relying on Y is a form of timing. The new ruling corrects that oversight."

Did he just need to use the word "intent" in one of those tweets or something?

It appears you are talking about the way Jeremy Crawford intends for people to interpret the rule today, whereas Hriston seems to be talking about what the rules in question were meant to do when they were written. Those are not the same thing. Perhaps if you were to use more specific terms, such as "original intent" and "current intended use" you wouldn't talk past one another so much.
 


Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
What does anything you said here have to do with my post? The thread is about SA, which obviously I've read since I've quoted it numerous times. Watch! I'm about to do it again in a bit! Also, I do not come to your understanding in the case of Shield Master that there are "multiple valid interpretations", only that DMs are free to change the rules to meet the desires of their tables through house-rules. Which, incidentally, is what you are doing.

No, I really haven't house-ruled this.

What it has to do with what you posted is that the tweet you quoted in that post added no new information that wasn't already included in the Sage Advice Compendium itself, and yet you seemed to think it suddenly made debate on the issue pointless. Granted, I thought you were reacting more to the revelation that Jeremy's tweets are no longer considered official, but I can see now that it was about how the DM has final say about rules interpretations at his/her table. I think you have a misconception about what this means, though. The DM's rulings, i.e. rules interpretations, are the last word on how the rules will be implemented at his/her table. This statement, while it covers the addition of any house-rules the DM may wish to add to his/her game, isn't directly about house-rules. It's about the DM's ultimate right and authority to interpret the RAW. And if the DM interprets a rule differently from how it's interpreted in the Sage Advice Compendium, that doesn't make the DM's ruling a house-rule. The DM is interpreting the same rule that Sage Advice is.

I will post this one more time, and maybe this time you will actually address my points in it. You have yet to do so about this part of prior posts.

Read this carefully! (Now, you might be tempted to not read it, thinking "Oh, I've read it before." but don't. Read it.)

Shield Master
[NEW] The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action. Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action? No. The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a precondition: that you take the Attack action on your turn. Intending to take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action. During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action. This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play.​

That's it. Right there. Do you see it?

First part: Simple question: Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action? Simple answer: NO.

NO. Can that be any plainer? Yet you continue to argue you can take the bonus action first. Why?

Because I disagree with his interpretation. I'm not arguing that my interpretation is the official one. I understand that the ruling in the Sage Advice Compendium is official, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

He is answering the question right there in SA. And while his tweets aren't official rules, SA is. I'll quote it for you, "Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium by the game’s lead rules designer, Jeremy Crawford."

Rulings ARE NOT rules. I think this is the root of the communication problem you seem to be having with me. You seem to think that by making these rulings that Jeremy Crawford is writing a bunch of new rules for the game. He is not, and his rulings do not become part of the RAW. They are merely the official advice on how to interpret the rules, take it or leave it. I can't stress this enough.

Next part: Precondition. Definition: precondition - something that must come before or is necessary to a subsequent result. The Attack action must come before the subsequent result of gaining the bonus action.

Next part: the text "Intending to that that action isn't sufficient; you must actually take it [the Attack action] before you can take the bonus action." Again, you must take the Attack action before you can take the bonus action. By your logic you are not in fact taking the Attack action first, you are trying to take it after the bonus action.

Last part: the text "you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action." after you've taken = after you have taken. This is past tense. PAST. The Attack action must have been taken before you get to decide when to take the bonus action. You are deciding to take it before you have even taken the Attack action. You are not following the official ruling on Shield Master. You are house-ruling it.

Not following the official ruling IS NOT house-ruling. House-ruling is making up a new rule or changing an existing rule. As far as this feat goes, my ruling is based on the RAW, not a house-rule.

Will you address these points? They are all contained in the SA, released by WotC and the D&D team, and official content and rulings on how to interpret rules. But you continue to interpret them otherwise...

Obviously, you don't agree with JC's interpretation. That's not what I am posting about. Of course you are free to change a rule anyway your group wants. But if you deviate from the official ruling you are making a house-rule--which (and I could be wrong about this, but I don't ever recall you admitting it) you have yet to admit you are doing.

I will not reply to any post you make unless you are specifically addressing the points I have made here. If you do not address them, I must believe you do understand the intent of Shield Master, the official ruling from SA, and are simply being argumentative.

Deviating from the official ruling IS NOT making a house-rule. You have to stop saying this. Also, the current official ruling on Shield Master does nothing to establish the RAI for the timing of the Shield Master bonus action, which had already been revealed in the original ruling on the Eldritch Knight's War Magic feature.
 

Asgorath

Explorer
It appears you are talking about the way Jeremy Crawford intends for people to interpret the rule today, whereas Hriston seems to be talking about what the rules in question were meant to do when they were written. Those are not the same thing. Perhaps if you were to use more specific terms, such as "original intent" and "current intended use" you wouldn't talk past one another so much.

War Magic:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/618267732098715648

"The intent is that the bonus attack can come before or after the cantrip."

Shield Master:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557816721810403329

"As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action."

The first tweet specifically says intent, I'll grant you that. The SAC has been corrected to state that there is a difference between RAW and RAI for this feature, and that the intent is you can do them in any order. Hopefully we're all in agreement on that.

The second tweet does not talk about intent, though. JEC has explained that he made that tweet when he did not have the books in front of him, and he appears to have forgotten about the bit in the bonus action timing rules that says "unless the bonus action's timing is specified" and that these conditions are in fact a form of timing. With all the information we have today, this original 2015 tweet reads as JEC simply saying "yeah you can do bonus actions whenever you like!" without actually remembering what the rules say (because he didn't actually read the PHB before replying, like he does now). Fast forward a few years, and he's been yelling from the rooftops that this 2015 tweet was illogical and incorrect and people should ignore it. How can you then claim that the 2015 tweet was actually the real intent of the words in the PHB? He made a bad ruling, and has since corrected that ruling. Am I missing a tweet that talks about the intent of Shield Master from back in the day? What makes the 2015 tweet the correct insight into the intent of the rule, and later tweets not the actual intent? Especially when JEC has said that it's supposed to be (i.e. intended to be) a finishing move?
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
To each their own, but it's just astounding to me that you can look at the sum total of JEC's tweets (and Sage Advice videos etc) on this subject since 2017 and conclude that the intent is bonus actions with conditions can happen any time you like.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994997405492772864

"It's supposed to be what it is: a way to knock someone prone after your attack. It's essentially a finishing move."

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995043696251842561

"If the existence of X is the condition for the existence of Y, X comes before Y."

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995069135905161216

"In 2017, I changed the ruling on bonus action timing because the old ruling was illogical. The original ruling failed to account for the fact that X relying on Y is a form of timing. The new ruling corrects that oversight."

Did he just need to use the word "intent" in one of those tweets or something?

That's a bizarre question. Obviously, it would take more than just using the word intent. It would take a statement to the effect that he had been incorrect about or had mis-remembered the intent of the rule at the time he wrote that tweet, and that later he had reconstructed or somehow been reminded of what the intent was when it was written. The reason I don't regard the tweet about what the first bullet of Shield Master is "supposed to be" as a statement of intent (even though that's obviously what the person who tweeted the question was asking about) is the way Jeremy Crawford shifted the tense of his answer to be about what it is supposed to be, rather than what it was supposed to be. To me, this comes off as evasive on Jeremy's part, and nothing more than an assertion that his interpretation is the only correct one.
 

Yardiff

Adventurer
To each their own, but it's just astounding to me that you can look at the sum total of JEC's tweets (and Sage Advice videos etc) on this subject since 2017 and conclude that the intent is bonus actions with conditions can happen any time you like.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/994997405492772864

"It's supposed to be what it is: a way to knock someone prone after your attack. It's essentially a finishing move."

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995043696251842561

"If the existence of X is the condition for the existence of Y, X comes before Y."

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995069135905161216

"In 2017, I changed the ruling on bonus action timing because the old ruling was illogical. The original ruling failed to account for the fact that X relying on Y is a form of timing. The new ruling corrects that oversight."

Did he just need to use the word "intent" in one of those tweets or something?

Why would anyone care about what "The Waffleman" JEC has to say?
 

Asgorath

Explorer
That's a bizarre question. Obviously, it would take more than just using the word intent. It would take a statement to the effect that he had been incorrect about or had mis-remembered the intent of the rule at the time he wrote that tweet, and that later he had reconstructed or somehow been reminded of what the intent was when it was written. The reason I don't regard the tweet about what the first bullet of Shield Master is "supposed to be" as a statement of intent (even though that's obviously what the person who tweeted the question was asking about) is the way Jeremy Crawford shifted the tense of his answer to be about what it is supposed to be, rather than what it was supposed to be. To me, this comes off as evasive on Jeremy's part, and nothing more than an assertion that his interpretation is the only correct one.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/995069135905161216

"In 2017, I changed the ruling on bonus action timing because the old ruling was illogical. The original ruling failed to account for the fact that X relying on Y is a form of timing. The new ruling corrects that oversight."

Isn't this saying exactly what you're asking for, which is that he forgot the intent of the rules (that conditions are timing) when he made his original tweet?
 

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