What does it mean to "Challenge the Character"?

[Guest 6801328]

How about instead, we just note the fact that the analogy is poorly chosen and inappropriately hyperbolic, to the point of obscuring the issues being discussed, and leave it at that?

I’ll acknowledge nothing of the sort. It’s as good an analogy as any. Sure, more serious stakes in freedom of speech than in roleplaying games, but that doesn’t invalidate the analogy.

This thread and others are full of bad-faith debate, willful misunderstanding, disingenuous rhetorical tricks, and denigrating/dismissive language.

Yet you seem more bothered by me pointing out the obvious than by the behavior itself. What gives?

 

[Guest 6801328]

So far as I can tell, some posters are adding an additional requirement about who can propose what based on some idea of what, for example, an 8 Intelligence or Charisma means. This is not supported by the rules of the game and, in some cases under examination here, it causes them to have to change the game to one of random number generation followed by description in order to enforce this additional requirement. Which as [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] notes appears to be a means by which they try to control dysfunctional player behavior.

That was well-expressed.

 

[Mort]

I’ll acknowledge nothing of the sort. It’s as good an analogy as any. Sure, more serious stakes in freedom of speech than in roleplaying games, but that doesn’t invalidate the analogy.

This thread and others are full of bad-faith debate, willful misunderstanding, disingenuous rhetorical tricks, and denigrating/dismissive language.

Yet you seem more bothered by me pointing out the obvious than by the behavior itself. What gives?

And as often seems to be the case, both sides seem utterly convinced it's the other side that's guilty of said behavior.

For my part, I'll just have to be more clear in any examples/argument. And also - not post quickly from my phone which seems to rarely get the intent I intend across.

 

[Mort]

[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION], can you define your "alternative method" for a low charisma character achieving a social goal. Because when we ask for examples it's "use the key to open the locked door". Well, duh. Of course you can bypass a locked door by using a key. You can smash it down if you don't mind the noise and the fact that you're breaking the door.

But it's the same as bypassing a trap. Want to open a trapped chest? You either have to use a skill or find the instructions on how to bypass the trap in my campaign. If you're trying to get past a trapped door and can just bypass it by going around, why wouldn't you?

So for social encounters what are your options. Bribery? Blackmail? The former may not work or you may have insufficient items of value, the latter is assuming you have a "key" (aka "dirt") and are willing to use it*. It also assumes that you do either of those without insulting the NPC. In other words in my campaign you could try those but best it would do would be to give you advantage and a lowered DC. Even then I'd still probably make it a 5 unless it's incredibly good leverage.

Which leaves us with "make a compelling argument", which gets translated into "good talkie-talk".

*Which actually goes for both blackmail and bribery. A lot of players would find those options a no-go, not to mention possible negatives in the future. If your PC uses blackmail, you've created an enemy. Bribery? Charges of corruption.

This is an excellent point, I too would like to delve deeper into social challenges vs. physical ones.

For example: In a recent game, the party had to get into the High Quarter of the city - populated near exclusively by nobles. It's walled and the guards are disinclined to let "rabble" in.

One of the characters was of noble background. He just prominently displayed his family crest and the group strolled right in.

Had no one had the noble background and tried the same approach, I likely would have required a deception check: The noble background ingrains the correct demeanor, bearing etc. but anyone else has to fake it (at least with that approach, if they'd tried something else I would have judged it from there).

 

[iserith]

One of the characters was of noble background. He just prominently displayed his family crest and the group strolled right in.

This sounds like the DM got pushed around by the player's talky-talky.

 

[Mort]

This sounds like the DM got pushed around by the player's talky-talky.

?

Noble background on his sheet. Seems like a clear example of the player using the assets/abilities of his character.

 

[iserith]

?

Noble background on his sheet. Seems like a clear example of the player using the assets/abilities of his character.

This sounds like something someone who got pushed around by talky-talky would say.

 

[Guest 6801328]

@Elfcrusher, can you define your "alternative method" for a low charisma character achieving a social goal. Because when we ask for examples it's "use the key to open the locked door". Well, duh. Of course you can bypass a locked door by using a key. You can smash it down if you don't mind the noise and the fact that you're breaking the door.

Sure! Happy to. And, yes, I get it, physical challenges somehow seem different than social/intellectual challenges.

So for social encounters what are your options. Bribery? Blackmail? The former may not work or you may have insufficient items of value, the latter is assuming you have a "key" (aka "dirt") and are willing to use it*. It also assumes that you do either of those without insulting the NPC. In other words in my campaign you could try those but best it would do would be to give you advantage and a lowered DC. Even then I'd still probably make it a 5 unless it's incredibly good leverage.

Sure, just like you may not have the key and have no other choice but to break it down (if there's no keyhole, either) or pick the lock (if it can't be broken down), sometimes you won't have the 'key' to a social encounter and might not be able to come up with any other plan than good old-fashioned fast-talking. In which case the DM may very well ask for a roll (or not, if the NPC is looking for an excuse to cooperate.)

Maybe one of the misunderstandings here is that that you (and others) are assuming there is ALWAYS an alternative plan with guaranteed success? Not at all. All we are saying is that the DM should listen to what the players propose.

By the way, you giving advantage, or a reduced DC, is logically no different than iserith and I giving automatic success: you are also modifying the difficulty based on the approach, you just are more reluctant to reduce it all the way to zero. (And I also sometimes give advantage instead of making it an automatic success.)

Anyway, on to examples. Yes, you cover a lot of the bases with the categories of "bribery" and "blackmail/threats":
- Offer gold. Maybe a lot of gold.
- Offer something else you know the NPC really wants (information, captives, magic items, perform a task, etc.)
- Threaten to expose 'dirt' on the NPC
- Threaten to kill the NPCs family members. (Does the DM ask for an Intimidation check? Kill a hostage instead. Another Intimidation check? Kill another hostage. Etc.)
- Instead of offering a trade, just do something to get in the NPC's good favor, and then ask. "Here, I rescued your daughter. No, no, no...no payment necessary. Although, now that you mention it..."

And, again, none of those are necessarily going to reduce the difficulty, or make it zero. But they might. It's up to the DM, depending on the circumstances.

(If I understand correctly what Hussar is saying, in each one of those cases the player would still have to make the same Charisma check, with the same DC, that he would if he had done none of those things and just said, "I'll roll Persuade.")

Now, the players, for reasons of personal values, or because they are roleplaying characters with personal values, may balk at some of these options. Again, there won't always be an alternative solution available. Those player might just have to make a Charisma roll. (Or give up, not wanting to face the consequences of a failed dice roll.)

Which leaves us with "make a compelling argument", which gets translated into "good talkie-talk".

Yeah, there seems to be an ongoing reluctance/inability/unwillingness to distinguish between "proposing something sensible" and "hustling the DM."

*Which actually goes for both blackmail and bribery. A lot of players would find those options a no-go, not to mention possible negatives in the future. If your PC uses blackmail, you've created an enemy. Bribery? Charges of corruption.

Yeah, sure. In fact, all the better. "Try a Charisma roll you will likely fail, with the consequence that you get thrown out, or use Blackmail which will likely succeed, in which case even with success you'll have gained an enemy, not to mention a stain on your soul." That's awesome. I love trade-offs.

 

[Guest 6801328]

?

Noble background on his sheet. Seems like a clear example of the player using the assets/abilities of his character.

I think he was messing with you.

You described a perfect example of "goal-and-method", and granted an automatic success because the approach made total sense. (I might have put a new obstacle in the way, though: the guards will let in the noble but not the rabble with him. Depending on what the player proposed, that might lead to a Cha check after all.)

 

[billd91]

Good post.

I especially like the Blades in the Dark example (which I have also been reading lately). Maybe that mechanic is a kind of litmus test: whether or not you like it perhaps says a lot about where you stand on a number of other playstyle questions.

For the record, I love that mechanic.

I enjoy that style of mechanic but to a limited degree. PF has a halfling feat called Well Prepared that goes about as far as I'd like with it. It's a nice little benefit that cannot be overused because, from a narrative sense, you can only use it once a day to have just the right item on hand. I build a lot of halfling adventurers with it because it's fun and gives you a very good reason to have a pack mule.