D&D 5E (2014) On GWF and a versatile fighting style

[Xeviat]

I think I would have liked it if all the fighting styles utilized bonus actions, but that would compete with paladin and ranger spellcasting.

 

[BookBarbarian]

As it stands currently I find the versatile weapon is really the best weapon for a grappler. They use it in one hand when wanting to grapple, and 2 when not wanting to (Fighting creatures more than one size larger, or that are immune to being grappled like a water weird).

I'd actually want a fighting style (and a feat) that would expand on that niche.

 

[Laurefindel]

As it stands currently I find the versatile weapon is really the best weapon for a grappler. They use it in one hand when wanting to grapple, and 2 when not wanting to (Fighting creatures more than one size larger, or that are immune to being grappled like a water weird).

I'd actually want a fighting style (and a feat) that would expand on that niche.

That'd be nice because at the moment, take duelist and at 1d8+Str+2, you're still better holding your weapon in one hand than "downgrading" to 1d10+Str versatile damage. 1d10+GWF is about the same as 1d8+duelist, so in that sense it's pretty balanced, but the perceived issue remains; even in this ideal case the versatile quality of the weapon is mechanically useless.

I guess versatile weapons do have a niche in the hands of a halfling who really wanted GWF in a feat-less game.

[edit] clarified my thoughts on the last part

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I think the main problem with a versatile fighting style is that from round to round or even encounter to encounter, things don't change enough that switching between one or two hands on a weapon will make any difference. If you don't already have a shield, there's no reason (except attempting a grapple) not to use two hands to maximize damage. If you do have a shield, then dropping it in exchange for a +1 average damage doesn't make sense, since it is not likely to make or break an encounter. And honestly, I don't see any mechanical bonus that would encourage switching between holding a weapon in one or two hands. With existing mechanics, only a champion fighter or fighter multiclass with ranger or paladin could be effective with versatile weapons, if they took Dueling and GWF. But even then, I don't see a lot of situations that would encourage someone to switch things up.

But as I'm thinking about this, maybe instead you can do something like the Protection fighting style, that adds a whole new mechanic. Perhaps something like this:

Versatile Fighting Style
When you are wielding a versatile weapon in your hands and no other objects, you gain the following abilities:
-When an enemy you can see hits you with an attack that only targets you, you can use your reaction to deflect the attack and reduce the damage you would take. You reduce the damage by an amount equal to your one handed weapon damage plus your proficiency bonus. After this reaction, you can only make one handed attacks until the end of your next turn.
-When you kill an enemy while wielding your weapon in two hands, you can cleave through them, damaging a nearby enemy. If an attack's damage would reduce an opponent to less than 0 HP, you can deliver the remaining damage plus your proficiency bonus to a creature you can see within your reach.

The above example is complicated and unwieldy compared to other fighting styles, but I feel like this is the kind of mechanic we would need for a versatile weapon fighting style.

 

[Tony Vargas]

IDK, maybe:

Versatile Fighting Style
You gain the benefit of Greatweapon Fighting Style when wielding a versatile weapon two-handed. Choose a second fighting style useable with a one-handed weapon, you gain the benefit of this style only when using a versatile weapon one-handed - you must still meet any other requirements of that style.

Yeah, that's versatile.

 

[Laurefindel]

IDK, maybe:

Versatile Fighting Style
You gain the benefit of Greatweapon Fighting Style when wielding a versatile weapon two-handed. Choose a second fighting style useable with a one-handed weapon, you gain the benefit of this style only when using a versatile weapon one-handed - you must still meet any other requirements of that style.

Yeah, that's versatile.

You know, I was about to reply something like “that’s dumb, who would *not* take versatile as a fighting style?”, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. The best way to avoid stacking fighting styles (which is a concern of mine I haven’t addressed in this thread yet) is to give already existing fighting styles. This way you can’t stack them with themselves.

So, who would take dueling on its own? Everyone going for finesse weapons would.
Who would take GWF on it’s own? Everyone going after heavy weapons would (for GWM, polearm master, reach, high damage dice etc).
Who would take defense on it’s own? Dual weilders might, so would 2-h weapon users or Dex-based characters.
Who would take protection on it’s own. Hum that’s a good question. But who *does* take protection in the first place anyway? This way you might actually see some use of it...

This all holds true as long as no upcoming versatile master feat gives versatile weapons the finesse or heavy property however.

 

[DND_Reborn]

This all holds true as long as no upcoming versatile master feat gives versatile weapons the finesse or heavy property however.

LOL and this is exactly what our house-ruled versatile property does!

I don't see the need for a feat for versatile, but that is just me.

 

[jaelis]

FWIW, my take on versatility is this:

Fighting Style: Brawling: If you have a free hand while you take the Attack action on your turn and attack using a melee weapon or your unarmed strike, then you can attempt to grapple or shove an opponent as a bonus action.

Feat: Versatile Fighter

• - Increase your Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
• - When attacking with a versatile weapon held in one hand, deal damage as if you were wielding the weapon with two hands.
• - When attacking with a versatile weapon held in two hands, gain a +1 bonus on melee attack rolls.

I've been happy with it.

 

[Toledo]

I understand the confusion, the strike-through didn't transfer like the bold and italic. I corrected the OP

Here's the intent:

On your turn, as you make an attack roll, you can use your bonus action to enable the "power attack" feature until your next round. You are not bound to use it on all (or any of) your attacks, but that would be the only way to use the -5/+10 on a reaction attack.

The cleave feature is free however, with a limit of once per turn

If you make the "power attack" a bonus action, you're going to completely nullify certain sub-classes. Currently I have a level 8 Samurai in a campaign, and she has the Defense style and has Great Weapon Mastery feat.

The Fighting Spirit component of Samurai requires you to use a bonus action to activate the advantage and temp HP components. I normally only use the -5/+10 component when I have advantage. However, if I want to use the -5/+10 component, I'd not be able to use Fighting Spirit. As it is, when I use Fighting Spirit, I don't get to attack another foe if I kill an opponent (or get another attack on a critical), as I've already used my bonus action.

What is proposed would seriously weaken the Samurai subclass. Other than flavor, why wouldn't I wish to go to Battlemaster, where I'd be able to augment my -5/+10 with one of the Battlemaster's maneuvers?

As I mentioned, the Samurai already is somewhat limited with Fighting Spirit with GWM. I wouldn't want to nix my character any more. She's still fun to play this way...with the suggested changes, I wouldn't have anything "special".

A well played high level assassin with the damage reducing element for defense already can go insane on damage, and can be as good as a fighter (I haven't analyzed the high level ranges yet - but the highest level I've ever reached on another character in two years of play is Level 12). Why do we wish to weaken the fighter moreso? Dexterity is such an important skill for for all characters and especially assassins, they are already only down one point of AC over fighters (17 with studded leather, 18 for fighters in plate). What does that leave fighters if you take away their abilities to damage? The assassin in our group does have fewer HPS than my fighter, but the assassin (often but not always) doesn't need extra HPs because uncanny dodge is so great versus the big bad foes.

In short, leave the fighters something that makes them great. They don't get high level spells or super nova strike capabilities. Just let them hit pretty hard (but not smite or assassin hard) when they use the tools they have (maneuvers, fighting spirit, familiars positioning themselves, etc.).

If you really want to see something crazy when maxed out, look at a ranger with the crossbow feat and a hand crossbow. My fighter just sits back in amazement when the ranger goes to town!

Right now Clerics, Bards, Wizards, Sorcerers, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, Barbarians, and Monks all have elements which make them super fun to play. Don't take away their toys! I've not seen enough Druids to give a fair assessment of how fun they are to play. The one class which I've found no fun to play is the Warlock. They need so many short rests to do anything exciting, it isn't fun at all. Taking away GWM from a fighter would make so many fighter builds unfun like the Warlock. Let the big guys and girls swing a mighty stick and have some fun too! Don't be a hater!

 

[Laurefindel]

If you make the "power attack" a bonus action, you're going to completely nullify certain sub-classes.

(snip)

Let the big guys and girls swing a mighty stick and have some fun too! Don't be a hater!

Nah, I moved away from the bonus-action power attack as soon as I got to the berserker barbarian, which is literally the first class/subclass presented in the PHB!

It never was about hate; it was an exploration on approaching the Two-Weapon Fighting conundrum (which cannot do any of the things you mentioned above) from a different angle. (BTW, your Crossbow Expert ranger is also dependent on its BA, as it basically is TWF for ranged weapons). But posting here usually triggers new ideas, or at least brings me further, aside, or above my original train of thoughts.

Nevertheless, in the present set-up, other combat styles have a hard time competing with GWM (and its little brother Sharpshooter), partly because it specifically doesn't monopolize your bonus action.