Sacrosanct
Legend
Second, death at -10 was an optional rule in the DMG. By default, you were dead at 0. I had multiple 1e pcs die at 0 because of this.
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I forgot to respond to this. Then your DM was being unfair to you

Second, death at -10 was an optional rule in the DMG. By default, you were dead at 0. I had multiple 1e pcs die at 0 because of this.
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That is not the rule. It is the zero hit point rule. Here, let me show you-
"When any creature is brought to 0 hit points (optionally as low as -3 hit points if from the same blow which brought the total to 0), it is unconscious. In each of the next succeeding rounds 1 additional (negative) point will be lost until -10 is reached and the creature dies."
This was a special rule for what happens if you happened to be knocked down to EXACTLY zero hit points. Now, this might occasionally happen (especially if you add in the optional -3 rider) but this is not the same as the modern interpretation of "blows that reduce you to below 0 = 0."
So to get really deep into it, you would say that there was a weird provision in 1e to cover that circumstance when a character was reduced to exactly 0 hit points, but no less.
(I mean, if you wanted to say that 1e killed you if you were hit to -1hp, and 2e killed you when you were hit to 0hp, but 1e also had a weird rule for when you went to exactly 0hp, then that would be fine, but it was fairly uncommon to get knocked down to exactly 0 hp)
Yeah, I've never known us all to agree.as we all can agree that 3e, 4e, and 5e rules are not as lethal as previous editions (removal of save or die, increasing ability scores, powers gained at almost every level, assumption of increased magic items, etc)
I'd tend to agree. 2e really didn't change the PC side of the equation too much from late 1e. But, it really goosed a lot of monsters, giving them more hps, bigger damage, and the like. I'm not sure, but I think save penalties may have become more common, too.However, when looking at the rules, it seems 2e just might actually be the most lethal edition.
IDK about concluding with a detailed ranking including things you excluded up front. But I certainly see the case for 2e. The case for 3e is also strong: monsters were very deadly, with piles of hps, loads of damage, SoDs, massive STR bonuses to hit, etc - OTOH, /optimized/ PCs were utterly horrific.So...when ranking the editions by lethality, it goes 2e>B/X>OD&D>1e>3e>5e>4e
Hmmm....discussion?
Another thing to consider is how the system facilitates the DM pegging the campaign to his desired level of lethality. TSR eds offered virtually no tools for that, over the years, most of us developed good instincts for it, and we could always take enough of combat resolution behind the screen to adjust an encounter as needed on the fly (if didn't offend your sensibilities). 3e & 5e use CR, which is not at all dependable, and 4e, EL, which was more intuitive & gave more consistent results. But, 3e & 4e were also more likely known quantities to the players, so if you did screw up, your latitude to adjust was limited - that is, it's just as well 4e gave you predictable results, because once you laid out the monsters and displayed their powers, you couldn't readily soft-ball it half way through, it tended to be all above board. the 'fudging' would be very obvious; similarly, the monsters' options were generally known to the players (even if you kept the stats behind the screen, they quickly infer a lot about it), so it's abilities 'changing' at some point in the combat would likely be noticed.(Yes, I know any edition can be lethal depending on the DM, but this is factoring RAW, all else being equal).
I agree with Sacrosanct that 2e could be shifted to the left in that ranking of lethality. But, as I said, above, there's some truth to it, in terms of relative PC durability at first level. In general, as the eds progressed, 1st level PCs were made more durable, from 3d6 in order to more liberal stat generation, from random 1st level HD to max, from no healing at 1st to bonus spells from WIS, from CON bonus starting at 15 to starting at 12, to +CON /score/ at 1st & Surges.... (peaking in 4e, though - 5e finally reversed that trend). That's exactly the above ranking: a ranking of 1st level PC fragility from most to least.OD&D > B/X > 1e > 2e > 3e > 5e > 4e
Not only is this true in terms of lethality, but it's also ALMOST completely chronological.
Weird huh?
OD&D > B/X > 1e > 2e > 3e > 5e > 4e
Not only is this true in terms of lethality, but it's also ALMOST completely chronological.
Weird huh?
The OP made a convincing argument that 2E was the most lethal, and looking at the math and available shenanigans for the monsters... he seems to be right. All other things being equal, of course.OD&D > B/X > 1e > 2e > 3e > 5e > 4e
Not only is this true in terms of lethality, but it's also ALMOST completely chronological.
Weird huh?