D&D 2E 2e, the most lethal edition?

[Sacrosanct]

I disagree.

The 1e modules were originally designed for tournaments. But they were sold to the public, people bought them, and they greatly influenced how the game was played.
I am proposing that the general play style in 1e was more lethal. How the game is played has as much influence on lethality as the actual rules.

You can disagree, but what I'm arguing is objective. Those tourney modules were designed specifically to be extra deadly than how the game was designed to be played at home. That's an objective fact. It's also an objective fact that 2e was designed for players to use all of the old 1e material (including modules) to be played. So at the very least, if you're using those modules as a reason why 1e was deadlier, then the very same thing applies to 2e because 2e was designed intentionally to use them.

 

[smetzger]

Those tourney modules were designed specifically to be extra deadly than how the game was designed to be played at home. That's an objective fact.

I believe they were designed to be deadly. But I do not believe they were designed to be 'extra deadly than how the game was designed to be played at home'

What is your evidence that this is an objective fact?

 

[Sacrosanct]

I believe they were designed to be deadly. But I do not believe they were designed to be 'extra deadly than how the game was designed to be played at home'

What is your evidence that this is an objective fact?

Because the whole point of a tournament module is to score you on how far each table made it in the adventure. I.e., they were never meant to be finished. Alive at any rate. If everyone finished the module, then everyone would have the same scoring. Those modules were specifically designed to be extra challenging and deadly because that's how the scoring system was based on. Well, ToH had an additional background of being designed to be extra extra deadly because Gygax was tired of cocky players. That module was specifically designed to kill PCs as fast as possible.

 

[Sacrosanct]

On a side note, I don't know why there's this repeated claim that you didn't balance monsters in AD&D. Just because something didn't have a CR, doesn't mean AD&D didn't have a system to ensure monsters were relatively balanced against player level. Start on pg 90 of the DMG which tells you how to do it, then reference pg 174 to see the tables of what monsters in what frequency would typically be found in an appropriate level dungeon matching the PCs level.

 

[Garthanos]

On a side note, I don't know why there's this repeated claim that you didn't balance monsters in AD&D. Just because something didn't have a CR, doesn't mean AD&D didn't have a system to ensure monsters were relatively balanced against player level. Start on pg 90 of the DMG which tells you how to do it, then reference pg 174 to see the tables of what monsters in what frequency would typically be found in an appropriate level dungeon matching the PCs level.

Level appropriate is a bad word LOL

 

[Garthanos]

Agree. Different types of pacing within editions in addition to pacing across editions is an issue that makes comparisons really tricky. We had a lot of encounters in mid to high level 4e where were beyond level +4, if you had daily powers or even party synergised encounter powers on tap.

We also used to also get really strung out in terms of long rests in 4e. We once went a whole level/ 8-9 encounters (when we were about 26th level) on one long rest, we had no daily abilities and about 3 healing surges left in whole party by the end. Good times.

Nods there is definitely that... but there is also how tactical you are willing to play the adversaries pulling your punches by having enemies play more than a bit dumb was pretty common back in the day 4e felt fair if that makes any sense.

 

[Maxperson]

Telling DMs to not use it is about as far from expressing it as a default as I can imagine.

You can go farther by expressing it as an alternative. This is from the NPC section a bit farther on. When creating general NPCs...

"General Characters: Roll 3d6 for each ability as usual, but use average scoring by considering any 1 as a 3 and any 6 as a 4."

You create general NPCs not by rolling 3d6 for each ability, but rather by rolling 3d6 as usual, since 3d6 for each ability is the default.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Level appropriate is a bad word LOL

Now that I think of it, there were other references to Level /n/ Monsters here and there in 1e. Summoning for instance.

And a whole little blurb about how they used the word 'level' for a /lot/ of different things that didn't necessarily correspond.

Nods there is definitely that... but there is also how tactical you are willing to play the adversaries pulling your punches by having enemies play more than a bit dumb was pretty common back in the day 4e felt fair if that makes any sense.

Oh, yeah, but you could be subtle about it. DM's Screen hides a multitude of sins.

One of the biggest things was the convention that many melee monsters would 'attack the greatest threat' or 'attack the strongest enemy' or something else that meant "Ignore that there's no mechanical way the Fighter can 'protect' his allies."

 

[Zardnaar]

There early adventures were tourney modules because people wanted to buy them. The idea was you would design your own.

Modules that came later like X1,I6, B5, B10, Even Temple of Elemental evil stood out because they were different in tone to the older adventures.

 

[Garthanos]

Now that I think of it, there were other references to Level /n/ Monsters here and there in 1e. Summoning for instance.

And a whole little blurb about how they used the word 'level' for a /lot/ of different things that didn't necessarily correspond.

Oh, yeah, but you could be subtle about it. DM's Screen hides a multitude of sins.

Not from the DM himself which is what we were discussing... a DM finding themselves now able to cut loose instead of faking it. This meant many 4e DMs were reporting more player kills than they ever had with any edition previously

One of the biggest things was the convention that many melee monsters would 'attack the greatest threat'

Yeh in a world of D&D caliber magic that isnt the guy standing in front its often the one with the pointy hat