D&D 5E Proficiency vs. Ability vs. Expertise

[Esker]

I agree with the original post in general. I think proficiency should trump ability mod pretty much all the time. I've been working on a game based on 5e that uses a 3d6 mechanic with adjusted DCs. The proficiency system stays at +2 to +6, but the ability mods max out at +3. I also allow skills to have +1 specialities; for example, athletics has specialities of climb, swim, and jump. A proficient character, especially with specialties, will beat a non-proficient character most of the time. The bell curve dice mechanic helps a lot as well.

Do you leave expertise alone? This change makes everything succeed less often except saving throw spells vs saves in stronger ability scores, since the DCs and the save bonuses are affected the same amount. Do you change AC formulas? If not, this is a selective buff to anyone wearing medium or heavy armor, since they keep their AC but attack bonuses go down. It also reduces differentiation among skills (assuming characters tend to favor getting proficiency in skills that use their main stats).

 

[vivsavage]

Do you leave expertise alone? This change makes everything succeed less often except saving throw spells vs saves in stronger ability scores, since the DCs and the save bonuses are affected the same amount. Do you change AC formulas? If not, this is a selective buff to anyone wearing medium or heavy armor, since they keep their AC but attack bonuses go down. It also reduces differentiation among skills (assuming characters tend to favor getting proficiency in skills that use their main stats).

The whole system has radical changes; it isn't house ruled D&D, but an entirely new thing that uses 5e concepts. There is no expertise or AC -- it uses armor as damage reduction, and attacks are opposed rolls. Skilled characters succeed far more often than non-skilled characters.

 

[Mycroft]

I mean that's a fine and defensible position, but those classes are balanced around expertise as written, so if you want to weaken or eliminate the feature, you've got to give those classes something comparable in value to compensate; preferably something of comparable value in the skill sphere. That's all I'm saying.

Well, by default we give this:

Rogue
Ability Score Adjustment: Your Strength, Dexterity, or Intelligence score increases by 1.

​

Proficiencies
Armour: Light armour, bucklers
Weapons: Simple weapons, arming swords, bolas, bo-staffs, broadswords, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, scimitars, shortswords, two-bladed swords, whips

Sneak Attack
You can only sneak attack with ranged attacks at targets within 30 feet.

Variant: Melee Sneak Attack
You can exchange the use of sneak attack with ranged weapons, for the use of sneak attack with all melee weapons.

Decipher Script
Starting at 2nd level, you can make an Intelligence check vs. DC 15 to understand text written in languages you do not speak, read, or write. The DC can be higher, as set by the Dungeon Master (depending on language obscurity, or other factors).
You can also use spell scrolls. You make an Intelligence check vs. DC 10 + the spell's level to successfully cast the spell.

Thieves' Cant
Only the Thief subclass gains this feature, not the base Rogue class.

Slippery Mind
If you are already proficient in Wisdom saving throws, you instead gain proficiency in Intelligence or Charisma saving throws (your choice).

 

[Esker]

Well, by default we give this:
<snip>

The extra ability score bonus is nice, and access to bucklers (I assume that's a +1 to AC?), as is getting to use double-bladed scimitars or whips (and get sneak attack with double bladed scimitars without the feat), but why are you restricting the range and why force a character to lock into melee or ranged sneak attack only?

Decipher script is a nice situational ability, but it and the ability score bonus don't really make up for expertise in the skill front, so on balance you're making the rogue more combat oriented.

 

[Esker]

The whole system has radical changes; it isn't house ruled D&D, but an entirely new thing that uses 5e concepts. There is no expertise or AC -- it uses armor as damage reduction, and attacks are opposed rolls. Skilled characters succeed far more often than non-skilled characters.

Ah, ok; well if it's a whole new system then it's hard to say how it compares. I applaud your creativity and initiative in making your own RPG though!

 

[Mycroft]

The extra ability score bonus is nice, and access to bucklers (I assume that's a +1 to AC?)

Yes.

 

[vivsavage]

Ah, ok; well if it's a whole new system then it's hard to say how it compares. I applaud your creativity and initiative in making your own RPG though!

Thanks! I also just realized I originally said "3d6" rather than "2d6". Not that it really matters. Sorry to have hijacked the thread!

 

[Mycroft]

but why are you restricting the range

We like it, do not dig Rogues getting advantage at hundreds of feet out simply because your buddy is loitering round the target.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

We like it, do not dig Rogues getting advantage at hundreds of feet out simply because your buddy is loitering round the target.

Why would they get advantage?

 

[Mistwell]

We like it, do not dig Rogues getting advantage at hundreds of feet out simply because your buddy is loitering round the target.

Uh...they don't? In the rules as written?