Sensitivity Writers. AKA: avoiding cultural appropriate in writing

[Bedrockgames]

Just taking this example - I think reading (or even Youtubing) up on all the speculation around Oumuamua, which includes serious proposals that it might just maybe be an alien artifact (eg a light sail remnant), would be vastly more useful than reading RwR.

While I think familiarizing yourself with a whole genre leads to everyone sounding the same and too much self-referential material, as a life long fan of Science Fiction, I think most writers who are passionate about the genre are going to encounter RwR. And Clarke is one of those guys whose themes it can be helpful to know if you are trying to do science fiction. If someone were interested in Oumuamua, and wanted to write a story inspired by it, I think it would most likely be beneficial to know how one of the greats handled that kind of topic. It is also not particularly obscure so if you inadvertently cover similar ground, people are likely to notice. He left a pretty big footprint on the genre. That said, I don't think referencing something that came before, or demonstrating awareness of it, automatically makes something better. I don't mind references, but sometimes I think they become stand ins for good writing. To me the most important thing is whether the story is engaging, interesting and moves me in some way. Having the realization that "ooh the writer is putting a spin on Rama" doesn't really add anything to the experience for me (unless it is something particularly insightful--and even then it is still more of a conversational curiosity than something that adds to the story for me).

Just to clarify what I mean by how it can be useful. I think it can elevate your writing if you read something like Rama, and understood what parts of it worked for you as a reader, what parts maybe didn't, and try to make something that builds on that a bit. It isn't terribly important to me if I am reading a book about Oumuamua to know the authors read Rendezvous with Rama. But if it reading it inspires them to make a better story than they would have otherwise, I think that is good.

 

[Deset Gled]

I say it demands perfection because its a concept that, in order to avoid, you have to regularly police your own ideas, regularly check with others to see if you are crossing any lines, etc. That to me lends itself to seeking perfection. I think when you add the moral imperative that fuels it, it starts to feel a bit religious. And zealotry can naturally follow (and I see ample evidence for zealotry). Especially when it becomes clear there is emerging a class of educated people who understand how to navigate it, and people increasingly have to seek their input. I can tell you honestly, even if I 100% bought into the concept of Cultural Appropriation, I would have a very, very hard time adhering to its requirements without seeking the assistance of much more educated and worldly people.

As I see it, you claim to not believe in this issue 100%, yet it seems you are arguing for the strictest adherence and pushing against more moderate views.

I think you might have just appropriated zealotry.

 

[Bedrockgames]

As I see it, you claim to not believe in this issue 100%, yet it seems you are arguing for the strictest adherence and pushing against more moderate views.

I am not 100% sure I understand the meaning of your post, so if I fail to, please feel free to correct me and restate what you intended. What I am saying is, when you encounter arguments about cultural appropriation, they tend to adhere to pretty extreme positions. I am not denying that there are more moderate points of view surrounding it (I still disagree with the core assumptions of those views, but I recognize they are different than some of the more extreme advocates of the concept). If you can show me where you think I am being zealot specifically, I am happy to consider and respond. I don't think I am being one. I think I am observing a rise in a religious like mindset that has been steadily growing in certain quarters of the gaming community, and I think my assessment of it is fair. I can definitely feel the difference talking about it now, versus a year ago or two years ago (or three). It feels like a willingness to entertain disagreement on the topic has dramatically fallen.

I don't know. I see the concept as pretty harmful to art, games, music, etc. I don't see it as especially helpful to the people it claims to want to help. And I think the core assumptions behind it are flawed. I don't think there is anything extreme about rejecting an idea you don't agree with. But I think if you do look at my overall argument, it is a lot more nuanced than you and some others are giving it credit for.

 

[Umbran]

My example was about emulating a style though, not about taking a snippet (which is why I said sampling would be another topic entirely). It is also why I talked about musical scales.

I think the issue is still covered under "phrasings, themes, and styles." Dismissing one does not get rid of the other three.

Yes, people like this actually exist. I think it is quite common.

To be clear: you think it is quite common that there are artists who don't know about the issue of cultural appropriation, and get popular enough to get noticed, and therefore get "punished" for it?

Can you find any examples? Or is this just your gut feeling? That you THINK it is quite common doesn't make it so. There's folks who think many things that aren't true. So, please cite examples.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think the issue is still covered under "phrasings, themes, and styles." Dismissing one does not get rid of the other three.

Those are not the same as taking snippets of things though. Again, I point to scales. You are not ripping a persons actual melody, you are finding an overall pattern of intervals that allows for that melody. It is more about style than specific content. Phrasings in this case refers to musical phrasings. Theme are also not specific things you can take ownership of. I am just not seeing the logic in the point you make here.

 

[Umbran]

Cultural appropriation does not exist. It is junk science...

We are talking about a cultural phenomenon, not a scientific model.

Pretty much everyone not of Native American descent claiming to have a "spirit animal" is engaging in cultural appropriation. Every drunk non-latino fratboy on Cinco de Mayo is doing so. There's some millions of folks engaging it it right there.

And, in RPG relevance - the folks who wrote about the Romani for White Wolf, and Monte Cook's first pass at a Native American content for The Strange, both engaged in it. Monte Cook did some work to correct his fault, thankfully.

Denial doesn't make it not happening.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Can you find any examples? Or is this just your gut feeling? That you THINK it is quite common doesn't make it so. There's folks who think many things that aren't true. So, please cite examples.

Plenty of artists have been called out for cultural appropriation and been suprisd because they clearly didn't have familiarity with the concept (from Kate Perry to Nicki Minaj). Plenty of people have been blindsided by the concept of cultural appropriation. It has happened dozens of times. But that wasn't the point I was making. My point was there are definitely people who don't understand the original context of the art they are emulating, and there are people who are not particularly worldly who just want to make art, and are not super educated like you. I am saying you are taking an elitist position that makes being creative more easy for people with advanced degrees like yourself, and harder for people who don't have that kind of advanced education. And I think anyone who observes these discussions knows exactly what i am talking about because it always seems like the people with master degrees, the lawyers and the PhD holders dominate the discussion.

And obviously I am not going to site game designers as examples of people who are not worldly. I am not going to put that label publicly on people I respect. But I definitely have seen people who are not as steeped in these kinds of concepts end up on the receiving end of anger in forums, on twitter and elsewhere. If you don't want to believe it happens fine. But it definitely happens. I don't take notes. And I don't want to call attention to people who have already been hit with this hammer in the industry. But it is real. And I think if anyone goods the YA Twitter story, they will see how unbelievably nightmarish it can be for people to get attacked for this sort of thing. You are basically turning not being worldy, not being boned up on a very complicated academic concept, into a huge moral transgression. That is why there is so much popular resentment against concepts like cultural appropriation.

And I can just tell you from my own experience, I find it incredibly hard to navigate myself. I can't imagine having to operate in the current climate. And I have a degree in history. But even with that, and even with trying to follow discussions on it, to me it just feels crippling to think about when you are designing something. And it drains the creative process of all its enjoyment. I've met plenty of other people who feel the same way (most refuse to comment publicly because they know what kind of reaction they'll get, but there are lots of people who feel this way).

 

[Umbran]

Those are not the same as taking snippets of things though.

Dude.

I said, "snippets, phrasings, themes, and styles"

You said, "I didn't talk about snippets."

I said, "Fine, I still noted phrasings, themes, and styles as issues"

And you are back on snippets. I have already allowed you snippets - those are covered by copyright law, and we don't need to discuss them, fine. Consider the snippet issue settled.

If an artist with higher cultural power makes money off of the phrasings, themes, forms and styles of a culture who are significantly under-powered by comparison, that's an ethical problem. It isn't illegal, but it is a pretty crummy thing to do to human beings who are already lower in status than you are, and yeah, you will be judged for being crummy to those weaker than you. It is a "pick on someone your own size," thing.

This is by no means limited to music - it applies to any art - but music seems to be the example we are focusing on at the moment.

It is less of a problem if the artist does their homework, learns the meanings and associations of the forms from the people of their culture, uses other artists from that culture to help, and gives due credit to the sources. It is more of a problem when the artist works from a position of ignorance, and does not care about the source or its people, and uses demeaning, petty or venal representations.

And, to be blunt - if there's an adult in the Western World who at this point doesn't understand the basic issue of differing cultural power... they are not paying due attention to the issues around them, and that is itself a fault. There is a point where one becomes responsible for understanding the world, and behaving appropriately. Such people are failing in that responsibility.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Some examples, because apparently it’s needed

 

[Bedrockgames]

I don’t think you understand what you are asking here. Telling musicians or artists to avoid styles that originate from ‘weaker’ cultures is not only going to limit them to dealing with styles from cultures closer to their own, it will lead to locking the weaker culture in place as well. You will stifle cultural exchange. I see nothing wrong whatsoever with taking something as basic as a color pattern, scales, themed, chord progressions etc and using those to make something. Even if you make money off it, it isn’t like you are preventing people from the originating culture from doing so as well. I understand you feel very certain about this. But I have to be honest, to be you sound like you are delivering a sermon and you haven’t really considered the possibility you are wrong