D&D 5E Abandoning attunement and scaling back concentration

[werecorpse]

I hear the general comments that the game can work with the current system (yes it can, particularly at below 9th level, this is a personal preference way of dealing with an issue that I and some others perceive) and I agree that one needs to be wary of those potentially debilitating spells that last a long time with no save every round like say suggestion; & I hear the general non specific comments that it’s not a good idea .....

But as I keep saying if you have some examples of spells that in your view removing concentration via upcasting would make too good I am all ears.

I mean let’s face it Mass suggestion is kinda like suggestion upcast by 6 levels, forcecage is quite like otilukes Resilient sphere upcast 3 levels - both the higher level versions have removed concentration (amongst other things).

 

[Blue]

For example one spell that I have allowed the caster to cast as a non concentration spell is greater invisibility IFF they cast it using a 6th or higher level spell slot. I think this is a powerful boost to the spell because now they can cast other concentration spells while remaining invisible- but it’s their one 6th level spell slot a day. They get 10 rounds to likely dominate a battle where they are fighting things that can’t see invisible. That likely won’t be the big bad but will be some henchmen. That’s ok by me.

...

But as I keep saying if you have some examples of spells that in your view removing concentration via upcasting would make too good I am all ears.

One comment is that there is a big divide in number of slots between low level vs. mid level vs. high level spells. Do you have a list of the spells that you can remove concentration on and if they are +1 or +2. So we can help identify any that may have a great impact than at first blush.

The lower level spells seem particularly ripe since you have a lot of slots plus can use higher level slots (perhaps gaining some other upcast benefit the spell has natively).

I'm specifically interested in buff spells (allowing other buffs), and in crowd control (allowing the same crowd control to wall off large chunks of the opposition - often preventing them from helping release the first group). Oh, with a side interest in spells on the warlock list since they auto-upcast.

But really, if you have a master list of +1/+2/not allowed that would be helpful for our examples. Right now we're guessing on the changes.

 

[jamesstreissand]

Changing concentration is the single greatest way to solidify positive experimentation and the value of control focused characters in your game. I've done it twice now, and in both instances spellcasters were happier, felt cooler, and had an easier time choosing which spell to cast on their turn (HUGE). The vast majority of concentration "balance" issues get swallowed up by the action economy.

There are any number of ways to do this, but here's what IS essential to concentration spell's balance:
Damage can end the effect early. That's about it.

You could also replace a great number of Concentration tags with a tag like "Singular: Ends the previous effect if you cast it again." The fact spells like Hail of Thorns cost concentration show just how overboard the spell list went. It's fine if you have a tag that keeps your players from casting other spells with that tag. It is NOT fine if that tag composes 50% of the spell list, and at least 90% of duration spells.

Most arguments for concentration go something like "Well if we DIDN'T have it, I could spend 6 rounds casting these 6 spells and become invincible!!"

This is how armchair theorycrafting works, and it is to be ignored. Your character doesn't get 6 rounds uninterrupted, not taking damage, not being subjected to negative conditions, not being surrounded, not needing to cast spells to remove yourself from a bad situation or save a party member, etc etc. Your super cool op combo that we need to thoroughly and pointlessly nerf spellcasters for will never happen in combat.
Ever.

I did a few things on this subject, an old video and an article

 

[werecorpse]

Blue my master list has all sorts of other tweaks and is a bit long I’ll convert it into a better postable format in the next day or so.

Jamesstreissand I hadn’t thought of the “singular” tag replacement, I like it that sounds very interesting- I will think about it. The allowing of stacking by changing concentration to a less oppressive obligation like damage ends the spell tag has been raised and I am interested in that option as well. I’ll check out your article.

I also gave Paladins an extra free ability to allow them to concentrate on one Smite spells without it affecting any other concentration they have up - but that was just to encourage them use those spells rather than just burn their slots on the Divine Smite ability.

 

[jamesstreissand]

I also gave Paladins an extra free ability to allow them to concentrate on one Smite spells without it affecting any other concentration they have up - but that was just to encourage them use those spells rather than just burn their slots on the Divine Smite ability.

And that's honestly the purpose of changing concentration. Making spells which "weren't worth it", worth it, especially for players who unknowingly screwed themselves by choosing those spells.

 

[jayoungr]

It's at high levels the restrictions really start making less and less sense. Archmages, that is. (And not coincidentally, this will help evil Wizard NPCs more than it helps player characters). These guys should totally be given ways to bend and eventually break some of the restrictions....

Oh well, it's still not too late. Maybe someday WotC will overcome their fear of changing their core system even a little and give us an Archmage prestige class (or something) that functionally overwrites the PHB's complete disinterest in giving high-level mages some sorely needed leeway.

I have both played and DM'd for a high-level wizard in 5E, and I haven't noticed any problems. Can you be more specific about what problems you see here?

Also, Legendary Resistance does a lot to help NPCs.

 

[Nutation]

So every spell freed of concentration has a ripple effect because it enables casting other spells. This would include lower level Concentration spells that aren't a good return to use up your concentration slot with at higher levels, but can be cast with plentiful low-ish level slots.

An example I haven't seen mentioned: I gave up casting Faery Fire when my druid hit ~9th level. But, melee types love it and it makes a big, big difference for at least a couple of rounds. I would definitely upcast it using a 3rd level slot and follow it up with a higher-level concentration spell.

 

[Blue]

Changing concentration is the single greatest way to solidify positive experimentation and the value of control focused characters in your game. I've done it twice now, and in both instances spellcasters were happier, felt cooler, and had an easier time choosing which spell to cast on their turn (HUGE). The vast majority of concentration "balance" issues get swallowed up by the action economy.

So ... were full casters as a whole disadvantaged in the game berfore?

Or did you just describe throwing off the balance between the classes?

Most arguments for concentration go something like "Well if we DIDN'T have it, I could spend 6 rounds casting these 6 spells and become invincible!!"

You haven't read any of this thread, that not once brings that up, but does have plenty of other examples.

This is how armchair theorycrafting works, and it is to be ignored.

No, that's how creating a strawman argument works. You create a situation which is not the one being discussed, assign it to the side you disagree with, and then demolish it.

 

[Campbell]

Concentration is not a balance issue for me. It is a gameplay issue. Part of the fun of playing any game is discovering fun interactions between mechanics. The lack of layered spell casting makes the game less fun for me. However you really can't keep the current spell designs in place for that. They were not designed for layered interactions.

 

[jamesstreissand]

So ... were full casters as a whole disadvantaged in the game berfore?

Or did you just describe throwing off the balance between the classes?

I didn't say whether they were or were not. Simply that they had a more positive experience overall. No, it didn't throw off class balance either. More access to the spells locked behind concentration expressed itself far more in benefits to the party (conditions inflicted on enemies, healing for the party) than it did turn mages into a one man army (and I gave them plenty of tools to go that route if they wished).