Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?

[CapnZapp]

I completely believe you are making these suggestions in good faith, and that you yourself believe what you say.

Problem is, I don't see it. At all.

I don't see anything in their stories that require a game that hews dangerously close to 4E if not in actual execution then in presentation.

I don't see the value of a million littlest feats that mostly give off the illusion of deep charbuilding while in reality just hiding the fact the game strictly controls the math.

And I definitely don't see why their stories require a brand new game engine that will come off as nothing less than alienatingly complex to the overwhelmingly vast prospective audience, namely, 5E gamers.

If we believe the simplest explanation is also likely the true explanation, I offer the following alternative:

That Paizo can't bring themselves to the realization their existence depends on D&D, and that they could not bring themselves to biting the bullet, making a game accessible to the only really big market out there.

Instead, to me it is painfully obvious they thought they did not need to even look at 5th editions and what made it so spectacularly popular. Their offering might have seemed reasonable in a world where the alternatives are either Pathfinder 1 or 4th edition.

But we don't live in that world.

 

[amethal]

Instead, to me it is painfully obvious they thought they did not need to even look at 5th editions and what made it so spectacularly popular.

It seems staggeringly unlikely to me that professional game designers who specialise in d20 products did not even look at the current version of Dungeons and Dragons.

I appreciate that you find it difficult to comprehend how Paizo could look at the same situation as you did and not come to the same conclusion as you did, but that is what has happened.

Incidentally, I am not saying you are wrong when you say Paizo have made a mistake. The role-playing game industry has many examples of gaming companies completely misreading the market. Time will tell in this case.

 

[CapnZapp]

It seems staggeringly unlikely to me that professional game designers who specialise in d20 products did not even look at the current version of Dungeons and Dragons.

Sure, but let's not discuss this in terms of generics, since that doesn't lead anywhere.

Please have a look at PF2 and tell me if you can find a single element that hints at Paizo understanding and learning from what made 5E great. I'm sure there is one, I just haven't found it yet.

 

[amethal]

Sure, but let's not discuss this in terms of generics, since that doesn't lead anywhere.

Ok, let's be less generic.

It seems to me to be staggeringly unlikely that Paizo staff did not even look at the current version of Dungeons and Dragons.

Please have a look at PF2 and tell me if you can find a single element that hints at Paizo understanding and learning from what made 5E great. I'm sure there is one, I just haven't found it yet.

Why on earth would I want to do that? I'm perfectly happy to take your word for it.

 

[Green Onceler]

what made 5E great.

Perhaps not everybody finds 5e to be great?

If I want an easy to run option, I'd choose Shadow of the Demon Lord over 5e. Every time.

 

[CapnZapp]

Perhaps not everybody finds 5e to be great?

If I want an easy to run option, I'd choose Shadow of the Demon Lord over 5e. Every time.

I honestly don't think targeting your game to the SotDL customer base over the 5E customer base is a sound business decision.

That said, good luck with your gaming!

 

[Green Onceler]

I honestly don't think targeting your game to the SotDL customer base over the 5E customer base is a sound business decision.

Perhaps not. I am just suggesting that perhaps not everyone enjoyed 5e. I didn't. Maybe Paizo's designers didn't either.

 

[Remathilis]

Paizo is reacting to the vocal group of players who thinks 5e is too simple and want (at least the illusion of) customization and depth. They also want to fix the inherent flaws of 3e that have plagued the game, such as magic item math and attack/save scaling. If you want to fix the inherent math problems but also keep the game with multiple choice points per level, you end up with something similar to 4e. Paizo us hoping that avoiding ADEU and including vancian magic is enough to thread the needle.

 

[Arilyn]

Perhaps not. I am just suggesting that perhaps not everyone enjoyed 5e. I didn't. Maybe Paizo's designers didn't either.

Actually they do like 5e, and have played it at their office. Paizo staff play a variety of games during their breaks including Call of Cthulhu and Shadow ofthe Demon Lord.

In total agreement with you, however. Paizo doesn't need to do a 5e clone. Even if PF2 fails, redoing a crunchier version of 5e would fail even more. We already have a thriving D&D.

 

[Kaodi]

You do not really even have to play PF2 with Vancian casting if you do not want to, given that the Sorcerer can "do it all" at least sort of, not to mention the Bard, and possibly the Oracle when it is released.