D&D General No Fixed Location -- dynamically rearranging items, monsters, and other game elements in the interests of storytelling

[The Crimson Binome]

Do the rules say, "The GM must have a fixed map, and populated map key, and that may not change during a session of play?"

The rules in the PHB and DMGs do say something to that effect. They kind of spread the message out, among various places, but it's there.

The contrary position, that it's okay to change things based on personal bias, is not as present. I'm not sure how anyone could come to the conclusion that it was acceptable or expected, unless they were bringing it in from another game. But there are a few inconsistencies that could be argued, if you really wanted to.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

The rules in the PHB and DMGs do say something to that effect. They kind of spread the message out, among various places, but it's there.

Quotes, or it's not there.

I'm not sure how anyone could come to the conclusion that it was acceptable or expected...

I'd start with every discussion of "Rule 0" in every edition of the game since its inception, 5E's introduction to which I just quoted in brief above.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It's good to see 3 different bans on RPG.net for this kind of behavior hasn't taken the wind out of Saelorn's sails. Shine on, you crazy diamond.

The mods over there are really fanatical about maintaining positivity. Even if a thread is specifically asking for opinions, and you use weasel words to try and avoid offending anyone, they just don't want to hear it.

Their design forum is surprisingly helpful when it comes to statistical analysis, though!

 

[Umbran]

The rules in the PHB and DMGs do say something to that effect. They kind of spread the message out, among various places, but it's there.

Before you lay out with the insult of "cheater", you better darn well be able to quote chapter, page, and line.

And it better be clear as day, not "something to that effect, spread out" and open to interpretation.

And if it isn't there... you probably owe folks an apology. Not that anyone on the internet ever apologizes for wrongdoing, but there it is.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I'd say that if the players and the DM are all having fun, then the DM is winning.

And that's what a DM should be looking at here, I think. There's a time for a DM to sit and wait for the players to figure something out so that they get a glorious "A-ha!" moment, and a time for the DM to rejigger the world behind the scenes when the game threatens to stall out badly. Knowing when to do either is not easily defined, being a mixture of observation, experience, and instinct.

(b) the DM is not winning.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Fair point. I think the relevant observation, if I may clarify, is that nobody is losing.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Yes, this will happen when I DM from time to time. One certainly could have an item or monster appear in a particular location regardless if it was planned ahead of time for elsewhere or not. Quantum Ogre and whatnot. One might even invoke the explanation as: random encounter (DMG p85). The DM decides when it happens or the DM rolls. Just because the DM decided the item was in one spot while planning, doesn't mean they can't then introduce it elsewhere later because... random encounter. Move stuff along and have fun.

Of course, this might beg the question to myself as DM. Have I created an overcomplicated environment for the PCs to interact with? Maybe. Maybe not. No one is perfect, but at least there is a relatively easy cure at the table. Provide multiple ways for the PCs to overcome an obstacle. Reward Exploration appropriately - sometimes let them find the item, other times it's ok if they don't.

 

[hawkeyefan]

It goes against the rules in the game. "Ignoring the rules of the game" is a way to play, but I wouldn't claim that it's valid.

It's actually recommended in most if not all editions of D&D to ignore rules that don't suit your game. So it's perfectly valid, actually.

As to whether what @Prakriti described actually breaks the rules....I don't think it does. His examples are all reasonable ways to handle things. Especially the second and third items, the essential clue and the hint at the wizard.

If you want the PCs to know or find something, then the world should be constructed in such a way that the check is not uncertain. Because if it is uncertain - if the DC is more than one point higher than the relevant check bonus - then we have rules for resolving that.

In the case of the papers, there's nothing uncertain about finding them. It's just the location that's changed. You could of course place them in the first room inside the dungeon/castle resting on a table, and the PCs would find them with no check needed, right? So if it's within the DMs ability to decide that, then what's the problem with him placing them in another location and also requiring no check?

Ask your players. They're the only ones who might care.

It's no skin off my nose, if you're a cheater, as long as you don't come into some public forum and try to corrupt the newbies.

Okay.

I have no problem with you playing your way, and I can even understand some of your reasoning. But don't apply your standards to others. It's pretty simple.

Also, I would hope that anyone new to the hobby who came to this forum for advice or guidance would actually receive a variety of advise so that they can decide for themselves.

 

[TheSword]

I’ve only been posting on these forums a year or two and I’ve lost track of the number of times Saelorn has become apoplectic about this issue. They just has a fundamentally different style of DMing.

For the record, I see nothing wrong with moving the locations of items/clues/monsters etc to make sure the session is as enjoyable as possible.

One of the key things I learnt when watching Chris Perkins DM Curse of Strahd, was if there’s a cool thing the PCs miss, instead of forcing them to do/find it, just pick it up and move it somewhere else. One of the things I love about 5e is that bounded accuracy makes this much easier than in 3e/pathfinder.

I’m also firmly in the camp, that if the DM has written/planned/modified/tweaked and adventure beforehand, then there is nothing morally wrong with doing it on the fly either. To say otherwise is to suggest the writer of the adventure is infallible which seems to go against all DMing advice.

 

[Oofta]

It goes against the rules in the game. "Ignoring the rules of the game" is a way to play, but I wouldn't claim that it's valid.

Can you point to where this "rule" is? Because I've never seen it. Personally I'm a really, really lazy DM. I don't pre-draw maps, I don't place treasure in a specific location. The PCs sometimes have to overcome a specific DC to overcome an obstacle, sometimes they don't.

Does that make me a cheater? Because I react to the players choices and try to build engaging encounters with appropriate rewards instead of having everything set in concrete before the players sit down at the table?