D&D General No Fixed Location -- dynamically rearranging items, monsters, and other game elements in the interests of storytelling

[FrogReaver]

When I design the adventure (or when I decide to agree with the module writer who put it there, if running something canned).

Things can be (and are) established in the fiction long before the players/PCs get there.

Things are only established in the fiction long before the PCs get there so long as you don't change your mind in the meantime.

No matter what is written or what are in your notes, you always have up until you describe it to the players to change your mind. You may opt to never change your mind, but that doesn't mean that you cannot do so.

Thus, the fiction is only established when you describe it to the players.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don’t think the assertion that moving things around based on what the players do invalidates their agency really holds water. The players are still making decisions about what their characters do, and those decisions (along with the DM’s best judgment and the dice in cases of uncertainty) are still determining the outcomes. Invalidating player agency in my opinion would be telling the players they can’t do the thing they think their characters would do. You could argue that moving the McGuffin from where you initially imagined it being to the place the players actually looked is railroading I guess, but not in any way that doesn’t make the train metaphor meaningless. Besides that, a railroad is only a problem if you don’t want to go where it’s taking you.

Shrodinger’s dungeon isn’t a railroad, it’s rollercoaster tycoon.

 

[Fenris-77]

Doesn't matter how well-thought-out their role-playing and-or choices are, if they look in the wrong place they don't find it. The adventure is what it is, and if they interact with it in ways I don't expect then so be it.

And that would be how you play the game, which is very different from how the game is played, period. DMing styles differ, that's fine, telling people they're playing the game wrong because they don't agree with your take on how to construct the fiction isn't ok.

 

[FrogReaver]

And that would be how you play the game, which is very different from how the game is played, period. DMing styles differ, that's fine, telling people they're playing the game wrong because they don't agree with your take on how to construct the fiction isn't ok.

The interesting thing is that what I'm proposing still leaves the possibility for any given item to remain in a place the players never look. So that letter that we were discussing in the Chamberlain's desk can "stay" there with our playstyle - or not - it's really up to us as DM's about what is going to make for the best play experience for our players.

 

[Fenris-77]

The interesting thing is that what I'm proposing still leaves the possibility for any given item to remain in a place the players never look. So that letter that we were discussing in the Chamberlain's desk can stay there with our playstyle - or not - it's really up to us as DM's about what is going to make for the best play experience for our players.

Yeah, that's a good summation of how I'd treat the letter. The nuances that would guide the decision to move it or not grow out of that particular group and session. My default is actually to not move things, but I don't mind doing it when it makes the game better.

 

[NotAYakk]

It sounds like you're replying to my post, but you can't be, because I made it pretty crystal clear that this wasn't a case of "find no matter what you do" but rather "find it after a very well thought out bit of role playing, and a bunch of well thought out player choices, just not where I expected them to look".

If I take the time to outline an example clearly, it's always nice to have people read it before they tell me I'm wrong.

Sure, and "shadow-play world"s are awesome.

In a "concrete world", you can add to the world. A different hint connecting things can be there.

(This is the difference between moving something and filling in blank spots on the map.)

Or, you can say "nope, not there". But again, in a 3 clue system (where important clues in turn have 3 clues to them), there must be more than one way to solve the problem, and they are dangled in front of the players, and there are plans for what happens if the players miss them all.

Dungeon World's fronts are something I'm still trying to crib for D&D.

You set up Fronts (campaign and adventure fronts). In the Fronts, you create Dangers, each of which has an Impending Doom. Coming up to the impending doom build some Grim Portents. Write some Stakes (interesting questions that the resolution of the front will answer).

The Front/Dangers/Dooms/Portents basically describe the things that will happen if the PCs do nothing. The Portents are the clues that the Doom is coming (a Doom is some (bad) change to the campaign world that is irreversible that the PCs probably want to stop). Dungeon World has mechanics for when the DM is permitted to trigger a Grim Portent (it has lots of DM mechanics).

Front: Demonic Conquest

Danger: Gnoll Horde
Doom: Region is overrun by gnolls, all kingdoms and cities destroyed
Grim Portents:

• Trade is interrupted
• Town A is raided
• Legion moves to defend pass
• Legion falls
• Castle B falls
• Mass refugees
• Capital falls

Danger: Necromancer
Doom: The Dead Walk

• Library destroyed
• Researcher looks for help
• Undead spawn
• Forest falls silent
• Dracolich sighting
• Artifact stolen
• King becomes Death Knight

Danger: The Chosen One
Doom: Demon Incarnate

etc.

 

[Fenris-77]

@NotAYakk - I'm a three clue guy myself, but you know players, they sometimes have a way of ducking the obvious and diving after the improbable. So I adjust on the fly when needed. Move the letter, drop an additional clue, whatever seems like the best response in the moment. If getting access to the wrong office was a complicated and extensively planned affair, I might be more tempted to move it, both to save a repeat of the same planning and execution at a different location, and also to reward well planned player participation - sometimes the players have better ideas than I do, and I'll reward them for those ideas. Other times the answer is indeed "nope, not there".

I like the fronts a lot. I haven't been through Dungeon World, but it's on my list now. I love punking good mechanics from other systems. My current target is Blades in the Dark, plus some odds and ends from Burning Wheel.

 

[iserith]

Not running plot-based games where the players are expected to follow a storyline sidesteps these sorts of issues of quantum clues. Some posters don't run those sorts of games and so the whole notion of moving clues around or whatever is no doubt very strange.

 

[Charlaquin]

@NotAYakk - I'm a three clue guy myself, but you know players, they sometimes have a way of ducking the obvious and diving after the improbable. So I adjust on the fly when needed. Move the letter, drop an additional clue, whatever seems like the best response in the moment. If getting access to the wrong office was a complicated and extensively planned affair, I might be more tempted to move it, both to save a repeat of the same planning and execution at a different location, and also to reward well planned player participation - sometimes the players have better ideas than I do, and I'll reward them for those ideas. Other times the answer is indeed "nope, not there".

Personally, I prefer combining the three-clue rule with proactive elements. So, if the players manage to miss all three clues, I’ll have a fourth clue come to them instead of moving a clue. Both are valid options though IMO.

 

[Monayuris]

What prevents you from changing your mind about where one of the treasure rooms is located?

Say on Monday you design your dungeon and it looks good.

However, looking at it on Friday you decide you don't like where one of the treasure rooms is located so you move it. Did the room exist in the fiction on Monday? What about on Friday?

Now what is the difference between deciding to move a treasure room on Friday and deciding to move one in the middle of the session?

I don't understand the use case. Would you provide a reason or an example why one would change the location of a treasure room in the middle of the session?