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Consequences of playing "EVIL" races

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
There was nothing racist or sexist about the 1e PHB race and gender maximums. Women are factually weaker physically than men.

Mod Note:
Don't start that nonsense. Please. If we have to break out the "anti-inclusiveness" warnings because you went down this road, you will not be please with the results.

And no, your arguments of, "But it is Teh TRVTH!!!1!!one!" are not going to save anyone.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
There is a concept of non violence from India called Ahmisa, which is present in multiple belief systems. The Jain religion considers all eating as an act of destruction, which clearly posses a problem as they include plants as living creatures.

Buddhist thought avoids this dilemma by simply defining plants as not being alive, more akin to crystals and so forth.

Most people think that we have different moral duties to living things vs non-living, yet how things are defined in our imagination, has real world effects, in my opinion.

I have in multiple points in this and related threads pointed out that some of the utility I find in fantasy is precisely asking questions about the complex problem of the moral duties one living thing might have to other living things, based on different natures of living things might have. As your brief survey indicates, this problem is difficult enough that lots of different highly intelligent and rational people have come to slightly different conclusions. I don't have any desire to argue or pass judgement on any of the above claims.

I merely ask that you stop passing judgment on my own exploration of these topics. I'd equally ask you to not assume that if I'm exploring topics like, "If brocolli was sentient, would it be OK to eat it?", that you not assume that the motive of that exploration is racism, any more than it (necessarily) was the motive of the Jains, Buddhist, and so forth you mention above.

But examining the issue, especially given the origins of the genre, and asking ourselves tough questions, is important, I think. The casual, narrational racism of the Solomon Kane stories certainly is leading me to ask these questions.

And that's exactly what I'm doing, thinking about tough questions. I feel like I tried to raise a bunch of tough questions in this thread.

But you know what question for me isn't a tough question: man's duty to his fellow man. I have I think a perfectly satisfactory answer to that one. The nature of racism is not one that provokes in me any real intellectual curiosity. I'm perfectly satisfied that I know it is wrong, that I know why it is wrong, and that I know what an effectual cure would look like. It's actually probably the easiest of questions in the complex universe of questions about moral duties between living things. And racism is itself only one species of hatred, in the overall universe of justifications man has for not treating other persons the way they would like to be treated. I don't really have any interest in discussing these things as a point of debate, because either you already get them in which case what's the point, or you are going to bore me with your theories justifying your hatred, scorn, and mistreatment of one group or the other. My impression is that a lot of the people expressing the most concern about this sort of thing, are the ones most struggling with their own mental models of how other people deserve to be treated. Nobody enjoys talking about racism as much as a racist, and the things that change over time are simply which group of racists are tolerated in public discourse.

I don't need bullywogs, goblins, gnolls, kobolds, aarokroka, dragons, vampires and all the rest to model mankind. I can just use humans in all their wonderful yet limited diversity. I don't need any symbols for any real world racial groups. When someone comes in and starts trying to map aarokocra and bullywogs to some real world racial group, I'm appalled. I'd ask you to stop trying to find race within my aarokocra, bullywogs, and orcs. The obsession is bizarre.

I've never read the Solomon Kane stories. I have read about half of the Conan stories. I would not use them as a guide to answer the question how one ought to treat ones fellow man, regardless of their skin color. Howard is a complex man with a hard life and many difficulties he was struggling with, and his thoughts evolved over the course of his life. As I would summarize his thoughts on race, his own thoughts seem to be quite congruent with one of those now popular racist authors, such as Jared Diamond of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" fame, who people aren't ashamed to quote approvingly since he's given Howard's views a little twist and new language. But again, I don't really have an interest in arguing over what author's views are so racist one should not read their works. I notice that for all your condemnation of the works of Howard, you are reading 'Solomon Kane' and it's provoking you to ask "hard questions". Well, good. Let's be careful then about who we censure. Even libertarians.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Women have higher pain tolerance then men, is that modeled? No.


It's also probably a dangerous myth based off the belief that since women endure childbirth, of course they have higher pain tolerance. It no doubt leads to poor medical practice. If anything, the literature seems to indicate the opposite - that women have a lower pain tolerance, they are more sensitive to minor pains, they suffer more functional loss as a result of pain, and this is in fact in no small part why women live longer than men. They don't ignore their pain when their body is trying to tell them something.

I have no desire to get into a debate about modelling gender in fantasy. It's unproductive, it's likely unhealthy, and it's based on a false to facts understanding of the basis of equality in men and women.

I'm just a bit tired of hearing from both sides of the debate how their view is the more factual one.
 

Zhaleskra

Adventurer
I'm not a Mod, but Maxperson was already warned. Personally, I could throw out all the facts that happen at the martial arts school where I teach and train, and no matter what I said people would hold the same opinion. Have you heard the phrase "A man whose mind is changed against his will is of the same opinion still"?

To get back on track: I don't like that races as a whole labeled whatever alignment unless they are literally avatars of that alignment like angels, demons and devils. Hey, it's fine if you don't want to think about it if there are races it's "OK to kill because they're all evil" in your games. In mine, player and GM, it disturbs me. Which is not to say I didn't play in such games in the past.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
There is a concept of non violence from India called Ahmisa, which is present in multiple belief systems. The Jain religion considers all eating as an act of destruction, which clearly posses a problem as they include plants as living creatures.

Buddhist thought avoids this dilemma by simply defining plants as not being alive, more akin to crystals and so forth.

Mod Note:

Okay, I know how this makes the disucssion difficult, but, we have rules against discussion of real-world religion on these boards. While I understand how real-world models are great examples, let us please confine our discussion to gaming as much as possible. Thanks, all.
 

Celebrim

Legend
To get back on track: I don't like that races as a whole labeled whatever alignment unless they are literally avatars of that alignment like angels, demons and devils. Hey, it's fine if you don't want to think about it if there are races it's "OK to kill because they're all evil" in your games. In mine, player and GM, it disturbs me. Which is not to say I didn't play in such games in the past.

I'm totally sympathetic to that position. And, even if I don't necessarily agree, I think the exploration itself is interesting. For reasons I'll outline, I don't do things that way, but part of me is thinking, "Actually, that would be interesting ground to explore. How far can you take the idea that anything that isn't an incarnate idea, and which is sentient, has free will and is therefore a person? And, what would be the actual consequences of that being true?" So by all means, explore that territory. It's interesting conceptual territory, even if I'm not at all sure that it is correct, reflects reality, won't result in self-contradiction if you push it far enough, or is all the mental territory that is worth exploring. By all means, explore it. Part of me wants to do it now just to see where it goes.

But there is a difference between me saying, "Explore that territory.", and people who are saying, "Anyone who explores territory that makes me feel uncomfortable is a racist." or even "Anyone that explores territory that makes me feel uncomfortable is promoting racism, and as such needs to be called out by the community as a bad actor."

As for why I don't assume all sentient beings have moral free will, it's ultimately because I think that's a bit less interesting. It removes some possibilities from the space of things that exist. It's not just that it removes some speculative purely fantasy territory - not everyone believe there is a possibility of real demons for example. It's that you can show that it removes even real possibilities from the space of hard science fiction - I've sited species from Mass Effect that are plausible within hard SF (even if not all of Mass Effect is) or the alien xenomorphs from the Aliens series, or sentient computer viruses, or the classic self-aware homogenizing nanite weapon as examples. So one of those "hard questions" that I'm interested in asking could be thought of as, "Do the Krogan, or Rachni, or Reapers, or the Insects of Shaggai, or the Alien Xenomorphs bother you because you think that they are racist or encourage racist thinking, or do they bother you because you don't want to believe in even the possibility of monsters?" Or perhaps another hard question could be, "Are you asserting that there is no such thing as objective evil, because you'd rather believe nothing you do is objectively wrong?"

To me those questions put a different spin on things. Are grimdark fantasies asking hard questions about good and evil, are they telling it like it really is, or are they simply rationalizing that since everything is evil, nothing really is? Are you humanizing all the monsters as a way of sensitizing yourself to how you treat everyone, or are you humanizing all the monsters as a way to say there is no right or wrong. Or to put a more gaming focus on it, did playing Vampire the Masquerade lead most players of the game to be revolted by the monster inside them, or to be less sensitive to monstrosity and to even revel a bit in it?

Or maybe even, if you are condemning someone for killing orcs because "they deserve it", how different really is your gameplay from that? What do you have in your games where "they deserve it" without reflection? Have you really got rid of your narrative need for "orcs", or just given yourself a new excuse for yours?
 

I'd like to address a double-standard that seems to occur on a lot of threads like this:

How come people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil, but they don't have a problem with Beholders, Demons, Mind-Flayers, Red Dragons, Vargouilles, Ghouls, Shadows, Vampires, Hell Hounds, etc. etc. etc?
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
I'd like to address a double-standard that seems to occur on a lot of threads like this:

How come people have a problem with Orcs being predisposed to evil, but they don't have a problem with Beholders, Demons, Mind-Flayers, Red Dragons, Vargouilles, Ghouls, Shadows, Vampires, Hell Hounds, etc. etc. etc?
In the case of Demons and Devils, they are the living embodiment of their alignment and always act based on its principles, by definition.

Monsters with no more than animal intelligence or acting on instinct can be always-evil in the sense of destructive (to others) selfishness: I am hungry and that leg - or the blood within your body - registers to my senses as Food.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Or maybe even, if you are condemning someone for killing orcs because "they deserve it", how different really is your gameplay from that?

And, there may be another point here...

I obviously cannot speak to how others do things, but even with "orcs are evil", PCs are not, in my experience, proactive about it. If there are orcs "over there, minding their own business" evil or not, they are left alone. I've never seen PCs spontaneously taken up an orc hunt without provocation.

Orcs being evil is, in my experience, is mostly used as a bit of shorthand - "Hey, someone's been raiding the local villages! Oh, look, it was orcs! Okay, well, we don't know if this particular orc guard was actually on the raid, but orcs are evil, and complicit by working for the same boss is sufficient cause. hackchopskewer."
 

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