How to address racism in a fantasy setting without it dragging down the game?

[Umbran]

unfortunately there's no debate 'cause 1) the public in general doesn't actually takes linguistics seriously and 2) the fairy tale story of a animal closely related to human learning human language is more publicly acceptable than some species of animals are just better at perceiving and imitating human communication.

Yes, well, if you open with "fairy story" no, nobody's going to debate with you. Starting with insults does not invite engagement. Kind of like starting a discussion with a flat-earther with, "You self-deluded idiot...".

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Panda-s1]

Yes, well, if you open with "fairy story" no, nobody's going to debate with you. Starting with insults does not invite engagement. Kind of like starting a discussion with a flat-earther with, "You self-deluded idiot...".

yo what? what does that have to do with an entire branch of science looking at animals like Koko with actual scrutiny?

 

[Bohandas]

On what page of what official book can I find the phylogenic trees for the fantasy races? 'Cause that would be awesome.

Now that you mention it, I can't find a 100% explicit reference for the orcs

However, the phylogenic tree of the elves is explicitly just Corellon Larethian-->Elves

This is mentioned in numerous places including the 3.5e PHB, Races of the Wild, and Monster Mythology

 

[Umbran]

yo what?

Never mind. It isn't relevant enough to the discussion to deal with here.

 

[Panda-s1]

Never mind. It isn't relevant enough to the discussion to deal with here.

look I get this is a forum, but this feels like tone policing. and in a discussion about religion or philosophy I might not say that sort of thing, but given it's about science (and a largely disregarded one at that) I feel it's little warranted.

it's not even comparable to flat earth theory. that has a whole lot of conspiracy theory attached to it because a lot of people question it and believe the earth is round. meanwhile the same people who believe the earth is round will straight up believe Koko knew sign language the same way a human does without ever questioning it.

 

[Tonguez]

okay guy who studied linguistics here, teaching a chimp to use hand signs is not the same as using language itself. just like you can teach a dog to understand spoken commands, they still aren't able to communicate via human language.

You need to look a bit more deeply into Hominid psychology since Chimps are one species that can be taught to communicate via human language (sign) and have the psychological apparatus (intelligence) to use symbolism and abstraction creatively. Moreover there is evidence that chimps change the intonation of their grunts and hoots to match with particular gestures.

So yes Chimps and other apes lack the apparatus of Speech, but they do communicate using standardised human gestures and approximate sounds

 

[Tonguez]

As to the Race-Species debate, while the use of the term Race is not at all ideal, in some scientific circles Race (or Landrace) refers to distinct populations within a single species and generally refer to Naturally occuring Breeds (whereas Breeds are created by human selection). So for instance the Scotch Collie is a Landrace but a Border Collie is a Breed, the Shetland Pony is also a landrace of the Domestic Horse (and just to add that the Przwalski Horse is an entirely different subspecies with different chromosone count to the Domestic Horse)

Anyway I’ve always taken it that the major fantasy races (Human-Elf-Dwarf-Orc) where this kind of ‘race’, and that with other humanoids the common use of the term was just habit (Eg imc Goblins are amphibians but noone knows that ic)

 

[Panda-s1]

You need to look a bit more deeply into Hominid psychology since Chimps are one species that can be taught to communicate via human language (sign) and have the psychological apparatus (intelligence) to use symbolism and abstraction creatively. Moreover there is evidence that chimps change the intonation of their grunts and hoots to much with particular gestures.

So yes Chimps and other apes lack the apparatus of Speech, but they do communicate using standardised human gestures and approximate sounds

what does speech have to do with it? I said they can't communicate with human language. using gestures taught by humans is not the same as using human language. they might have the ability to communicate orally, but that's not the same as using human language.

 

[Tonguez]

what does speech have to do with it? I said they can't communicate with human language. using gestures taught by humans is not the same as using human language. they might have the ability to communicate orally, but that's not the same as using human language.

Human sign language is gestures taught by humans. too, but I take your point that knowing a sign doesnt mean use of language.
However the major part of my comment though was on Hominid psychology and the fact that Chimps and other apes can use human-taught sign to express status and opinion, use transference and word combination to create novel sentences, express desire, refer to missing objects, and even make counterfactual statements for deceptive or humorous effect. Also notable is the teaching of sign to other apes and use of metalanguage reinforcement.
Anyway most researchers put Ape cognitive ability about on par with a 3 year old human child. What does appear to be missing from ape language (as compared to a human child) however is use of Questions, While they can identify places and things Apes appear to be entirely "self - goal" focussed and have not been documented as asking "who, what or where questions"