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D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
DNDBeyond data would seem to suggest that, yes, you did luck out, statistically at least. Although, the demographics you tend to associate are probably a factor. Rather than “you hit the lottery” I’d suggest you tend to associate with people with far more ability to make and keep a long-term commitment to a campaign than the average D&D player today.
It also comes down to vetting your players before starting and only inviting in those who are willing to commit to the long haul.

And sure, life and times change; but if everyone at least starts with the intent of sticking it out the odds are much better that some (or most, or all) in fact will.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
You’re the one who brought it up...
You obviously know I brought it up as a point of comparison to the subject matter I * did * intend to discuss, namely Paizo's new game.

But maybe you're like those other posters in this thread that see "4E" and then immediately forget about everything else... ;)

It sure isn't the first thread where that's happened...
 


CapnZapp

Legend
Full disclosure: I haven't read the thread so I'm not commenting on the trajectory that its taken or any specific comments except for this one which has always bothered me (which was also an Edition War refrain in the 4e era):

'If everyone is special then no-one is."

I've never understood how this is anything more than basically a D&D genome epithet.

One of the fundamental spokes in the wheel of D&D play, as a Class-based system with inherent niche/role, is..."everyone is special!"

Even if you (somehow) disagree with this, tons of other games (TTRPGs from Torchbearer to Leverage to Apocalypse World and team-based sports like American Football and Baseball) have niche/role "everyone is special" built into their paradigm. And (I guess despite itself) everyone is, indeed, actually special.
I have already explained but I'll do it again:

I use the phrase in the following context:

If you can't create an un-special character, you can't create a special character.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
If it is not possible to mess up, then it isn't possible to do well. But, as much as you might enjoy the challenge of doing a well-designed character who is special, other people are going to get frustrated and upset about making a character who sucks.

Why can't it be a smaller curve? Why can't it be that most characters, even if generated completely randomly will be of average strength, and then those well-designed characters are just a little above them? Why does it have to be that there are bad options that you should never take? What does that add for the new person looking to try out this game they are uncertain of?
Let's not discuss this in general, or in theory.

If you try creating a PF2 character I think you will find that you are asked to make a ton of decisions. I posit they don't have enough of an impact.

I'm asking the question:

Why did nobody at Paizo realize they were going down the same path as WotC's last and failed edition in this regard?
 

CapnZapp

Legend
A
4e was designed in response to 3.5.

PF2 was designed in response to PF (which, itself, was more or less also 3.5).

Hence, 4e and PF2 sprang from pretty much the same roots. At the end of their lifespans, the designers of each were probably responding to the same issues. The same things that they wished they could change about the games they'd been working on for a decade. What I'm basically trying to say is that, if you think about it, it's not really all that surprising that they ended up with similarities.

What I've been trying to explain is that I don't think that they chased after WotC 2008 at all. It's simply a case of convergent design, which might look that way to some.

To turn this into an analogy, let's assume you and I both leave from proximate locations and drive east. It's hardly inconceivable that our desitations might be proximate as well, or that my trip takes me past your destination. If you left just before me it might seem to you (or to a third party observing the trip) that I was following you. However, that would not actually being the case. We were simply heading in the same direction.

When you get down to it, the design philosophy of both games (4e and PF2) is solid. Some people might take exception with the implementation of those goals, but that's not the same thing as the goal itself.
Sure, but I note you carefully avoid touching the elephant in the room:

When the official playtest began in fall '18 it was abundantly clear WotC had a huge huge HUGE success on their hands.

Why do we see essentially zero traces of that edition in PF2?

What you're not explaining is how come PF2 feels like it's been developed in total isolation, like a time capsule?

If Pathfinder 2 had been released in 2009(?) at the latest, when it was still possible to claim 4E was the next big thing in ttrpg gaming, I would have had no questions, completely understanding where Paizo came from and what they aimed for.

But ten years later?
 

I have already explained but I'll do it again:

I use the phrase in the following context:

If you can't create an un-special character, you can't create a special character.

Already answered. In Apocalypse World you can't create an un-special character. But all the characters are special and strongly written to be so and all feel so in play. Flat disproof by counter-example.

To me "When everyone is special then no one is" means that someone is taking their philosophy from a cartoon supervillain.

And why PF2 might want to follow a lead from 4e? 5e is successful from what I can tell thanks to Matt Mercer and Critical Role (which is where most of the new players are coming from in my experience). Even about a year after the launch of 5e 4e was still raking in millions of dollars a year thanks to the still remaining 4e Insider subscriptions - and we don't know more than that because WotC shut their boards down afterwards. That's still a pretty lucrative market and one worth going after especially when you have a game where another edition you know is going to be controversial. Serving existing 5e players would be a bad choice - 5e players already have a game in print that suits them. This is not a market up for grabs, unlike 4e.

And mark me down as another one that finds 5e characters, after five years, more samey than 4e characters were when I started playing (which was admittedly just after the launch of the PHB II; the original PHB was undercooked and both Martial Power and the PHB2 were much better). How characters move matters a lot. And options that encourage spamming (the way the Battlemaster does) are a lot more samey than options that don't (like encounter powers). And being able to swap wizards spellbooks and have them almost swap over is just depressing and means that a wizard's "character" is largely their equipment picks.

But as for 3e characters starting out as ordinary people, I'll believe that when I find the ordinary person who can cast Burning Hands. As someone whose two first RPGs were GURPS and WFRP I've never found first level characters in any edition of D&D to be other than already extraordinary (with explicit 0th level characters and commoner classes only underlining this).
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Sure, but I note you carefully avoid touching the elephant in the room:

When the official playtest began in fall '18 it was abundantly clear WotC had a huge huge HUGE success on their hands.

Why do we see essentially zero traces of that edition in PF2?

What you're not explaining is how come PF2 feels like it's been developed in total isolation, like a time capsule?

If Pathfinder 2 had been released in 2009(?) at the latest, when it was still possible to claim 4E was the next big thing in ttrpg gaming, I would have had no questions, completely understanding where Paizo came from and what they aimed for.

But ten years later?
I wasn't avoiding anything. I already explained that in my first post.

They wanted to create their own game.

If you want to create your own thing, the last thing you want to do is copy what the industry leader is doing, irrespective of their success. Which begs a rhetorical question I have already raised: is it better to design the game that you want to create, or the game that will be successful (assuming you can have only one or the other)?

I think that Paizo chose to make the game that they wanted to make and then hoped that it would be successful. And, again repeating myself, we have no idea what Paizo's idea of success looks like, so we have no idea at this time whether or not Paizo achieved success with PF2. It might be an astounding success for them. It could be a miserable failure. It might be just barely good enough. We can speculate based on the limited data we do have, but we lack sufficient facts to "know".

For better or worse, I don't think Paizo relied much on what other designers had done. I think the reason you say it feels like it was developed in isolation is because it was.

There are two theories on reading as it pertains to being a writer. The first is to read everything you can so as to assimilate many ideas and writing styles; to see what and how the competition is doing things, as it were. The other is to avoid reading anything else in your genre, because outside ideas might pollute your own creativity and style, and your books might end up less original as a result. Both are legitimate approaches as I understand it, but it depends on the individual as to which approach works better for them. I think Paizo was going with more or less the latter approach.

Obviously, given that this was a collaborative effort, at least some of their designers were familiar with at least some outside games, but PF2 doesn't look to me like a game that was designed by borrowing pieces from other games. I think that its similarities to 4e can be attributed to convergent design that was a result of both teams trying to address issues they had with 3.x/PF. If you lay out the 4e books next to PF2 and compare the actual implementations, they are quite different. Which suggests to me that PF2 was a "second evolution" of the 3.x ruleset, rather than intentionally made to feel similar to 4e.
 

pemerton

Legend
I guess this raises the question of what folks mean by “feel.” To me, if it doesn’t play different, it doesn’t feel different. Sure, the Cavalier (for example) has the aesthetics of a defender - you read it, you see a handful of abilities that seem like they’d be something a character who defends their allies would do. But in actual play, you have mostly the same decision points and take mostly the same actions as any other fighter.

In contrast, an attack that does 2[W] damage and shoves the target 5 feet might not look that different from an attack that does 2[W] damage and lets the attacker shift 5 feet (just random examples off the top of my head), but in practice they feel different to me because they’re useful in very different situations and affect how the encounter proceeds in very different ways.
I find a lot of the common descriptions of 4e odd. I've played a fair bit of 4e - 100s of hours - and the PCs all played very differently: the "controller" (reach/polearm) fighter was different from the AoE sorcerer was different from the ranger/cleric was different from the single target paladin was different from the mostly-weak-but-occasional-AoE-debuff invoker. And that's just talking combat, before we get into their differences in respect of non-combat activities.

The example of the invoker in our game also showed me, to my satisfaction at least, that it is possible to build a character who trades of combat effectiveness for non-combat effectiveness (in that case via rituals and skills).

I can't comment on PF2, by way of comparison or otherwise, because I don't know enough about it.
 

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