Is the DM the most important person at the table

[lowkey13]

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[Maxperson]

But, you don't.

Sure, the DM said, "I need 4 NPC's for a frame up of the prince". But, again, the DM IS ALLOWED TO CHANGE ANYTHING.

So, it might be that the prince did it or it might be a frame up. The players don't know. They know only what they contributed.

Okay, then what's the freaking point of saying you need 4 NPCs for a frame up of the prince?

If anything can be changed and they aren't going to know anyway, then the DM should just ask for 4 NPCs in the palace.

No one has yet displayed any huge flaw in what I'm proposing.

I don't know that I would call it huge, but the flaw above is definitely a flaw.

You want a scenario where someone has been killed and the prince is being blamed for it. Ok, simple solution, "I need 4 members of the court before next session please". Done. How much information and how much you want to draw the players in is up to you.

I said something like this a number of posts ago. There's no need to mention a frame of the prince and even mentioning it ruins the surprise if that's what you go with.

 

[Nagol]

Okay, then what's the freaking point of saying you need 4 NPCs for a frame up of the prince?

If anything can be changed and they aren't going to know anyway, then the DM should just ask for 4 NPCs in the palace.



I don't know that I would call it huge, but the flaw above is definitely a flaw.



I said something like this a number of posts ago. There's no need to mention a frame of the prince and even mentioning it ruins the surprise if that's what you go with.

The big problem with just asking for any form of construction without context is there is an extremely good chance nothing you get will fit to purpose.

If you really need a church, but ask for 4 random buildings, the 2 houses, outdoor shed, and lord's manor you receive are of no use.

So you need to provide context. But, the more context you provide, the fewer surprises can be expected.

 

[Maxperson]

The big problem with just asking for any form of construction without context is there is an extremely good chance nothing you get will fit to purpose.

If you really need a church, but ask for 4 random buildings, the 2 houses, outdoor shed, and lord's manor you receive are of no use.

So you need to provide context. But, the more context you provide, the fewer surprises can be expected.

Context was provided in my post. To frame the prince, they should know the prince and/or have access to the prince and/or palace. By asking for 4 NPCs in the palace, you are going to get 4 NPCs that have access and can be provided motive. There's no need to mention a frame.

 

[Nagol]

Context was provided in my post. To frame the prince, they should know the prince and/or have access to the prince and/or palace. By asking for 4 NPCs in the palace, you are going to get 4 NPCs that have access and can be provided motive. There's no need to mention a frame.

So the LG paladin squire, head cleric of law, young impressionable stableboy, and flirty but wholesome maid that you get back are probably not that useful.

There are literally hundreds or thousands of people that would fit the vague description. Very few meet your more specific needs. Even fewer will make sense inside any fictional positioning already established during play.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Maxperson]

So the LG paladin squire, head cleric of law, young impressionable stableboy, and flirty but wholesome maid that you get back are probably not that useful.

Hah! I knew stableboy would be in there.

You mean the stableboy that has been abused by the prince a number of times for being slow at getting the prince's horse ready, even though the stableboy was working as quickly as could be expected? The stableboy saved up his money for the last 3 years and managed to acquire a rare poison from a shady person in the dregs of town. While visiting his girlfriend in the kitchens, he put the poison into the food into the plate a visiting envoy from the Kingdom of Weareannoying whom the prince hates, but had to entertain for dinner.

I could also come up with reasons for the other three to be the murderer, even the paladin(though he would probably end up falling from grace).

 

[Maxperson]

I think it was more of a general point. Which is largely in accord with what you've been saying (and also Hussar, but it explains the disagreement!).

To borrow one of my favorite phrases, "Specificity is the soul of narrative."

The more you are given great narrative (specificity), the less surprise there can be.

But the less specific, the more surprise! But then, it's unlikely to be helpful.

Which is why players providing backgrounds, etc. is great for D&D, but it's not quite as helpful to have them craft large bits of ongoing narrative in media res if your D&D game is built on specificity, surprise, and exploration.

IMO.

Then again, what do I know. I'm only in it for the beer and pretzels!

And you're lazy!! But you can't blame lazy people. They didn't do anything.

 

[prabe]

I think it was more of a general point. Which is largely in accord with what you've been saying (and also Hussar, but it explains the disagreement!).

To borrow one of my favorite phrases, "Specificity is the soul of narrative."

The more you are given great narrative (specificity), the less surprise there can be.

But the less specific, the more surprise! But then, it's unlikely to be helpful.

Which is why players providing backgrounds, etc. is great for D&D, but it's not quite as helpful to have them craft large bits of ongoing narrative in media res if your D&D game is built on specificity, surprise, and exploration.

IMO.

Then again, what do I know. I'm only in it for the beer and pretzels!

I think this is why "ask the players for content (like NPCs)" doesn't seem like a helpful way to reduce the DM's workload to some of us. If we're trying to do anything that's dependent on limited information, it's at least as much work to fit in what the players give you as it is to work it up yourself.

 

[lowkey13]

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