D&D 5E Wish and the requirement removal

[MarkB]

Would that mean you must be outside to cast control weather or not.

It's a requirement of the spell that you would normally have to meet - so yeah, you get to ignore it. Whether that means you get to make it rain indoors, or simply that you change the prevailing weather conditions outside without needing to be there yourself is a matter for DM interpretation.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

It's Wish. You don't even need to make it replace a spell. Can you make it rain indoors? Yes.

Can you cast a curse on a valley which makes it rain blood constantly over a person's castle? Yes.

Having it replicate a spell effect is just ONE of its functions. I'm pretty sure there's wiggle-room when it comes to changing things like range, energy type, target, duration.

My only problem with that Wish is free. So I could see there being DMs who might be careful with how much one can change the confines of a spell without venturing into the last part of the spell's description:

"The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you..."

As a Dm I might give a little leeway with changing spells but, if a player starts abusing this, it's easy for the DM to adjudicate that changing the duration or target is not a Duplication of the spell and, therefore, opens the player to the negative effects of the spell.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Requirements is mentioned in one place in the spellcasting rules:

A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.

The rest of the spell is part of the effect -- range, target, duration, etc.

 

[Todd Roybark]

duration certainly should not.

I generally agree, while I might allow case by case adjustments.
Someone using the Wish spell to duplicate the Forbiddance effect with a duration of dispelled, would be fine.

A permanent Haste effect, no. I would let a player add the effect of the Extended Spell metamagic power, though.

MarkB, the casting requirements of the Wish spell, supersede the casting requirements of the duplicated spell.

Here is the relevant section from the Wish spell:
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect

So the order of operations is:
1) The player casts the Wish spell, subject to the casting requirements of the Wish spell.
2) The player chooses a spell of 8th level or lower to duplicate.
2a) You don’t need to meet any requirements of the duplicated spell, presumably because you have completed the casting requirements of the Wish spell.
3) The effect comes into being.

Presto the Wizard, casts the Wish spell, (that has a range of self), chooses the Spirit Guardian spell, which is not subject to the spell’s normal casting requirements, and has the effect target his party mate Hank. The spell simply takes effect.

A 9th level spell slot being used to give Hank the Ranger a 9d8 Spirit Guardian effect that lasts 20 minutes and does not require Concentration is powerful.
It is very powerful.

Most Demon Princes have a +12 to Wisdom saving throws. It is not going to wreck a high level encounter with Tier 4, end of campaign foes.

 

[MarkB]

I generally agree, while I might allow case by case adjustments.
Someone using the Wish spell to duplicate the Forbiddance effect with a duration of dispelled, would be fine.

A permanent Haste effect, no. I would let a player add the effect of the Extended Spell metamagic power, though.

MarkB, the casting requirements of the Wish spell, supersede the casting requirements of the duplicated spell.

Here is the relevant section from the Wish spell:
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect

So the order of operations is:
1) The player casts the Wish spell, subject to the casting requirements of the Wish spell.
2) The player chooses a spell of 8th level or lower to duplicate.
2a) You don’t need to meet any requirements of the duplicated spell, presumably because you have completed the casting requirements of the Wish spell.
3) The effect comes into being.

Presto the Wizard, casts the Wish spell, (that has a range of self), chooses the Spirit Guardian spell, which is not subject to the spell’s normal casting requirements, and has the effect target his party mate Hank. The spell simply takes effect.

But by that logic, you could just as easily stand in front of the amassed ranks of your local allied army, and Wish to cast Spirit Guardians with a target of "every single member of the army". Having it only affect you is one of its requirements, and if you are able to ignore those requirements entirely, there's literally no limit to how many people it can affect.

Likewise, you could stand a mile away from the opposing army, and Wish to cast an 8th-level Fireball with a range of one mile (or, heck, a million miles) and an area of effect the exact shape and size of the enemy formation. Because range and area of effect are also requirements of the spell, and if you're ignoring them completely, then there are no limits.

The only logical reading of the Requirements clause in the Wish spell is that it allows you to ignore any requirements that would otherwise prevent the spell from taking effect - not that you can ignore the requirements that shape how that effect manifests.

 

[Todd Roybark]

MarkB, is the above a knee jerk response, or are you trying to make absurd claims, as a strategy, to attempt, to discredit the argument?

This is an question asked in earnest, (I can’t tell).

A Fireball spell with a mile range, is a very lesser version of the Meteor Swarm Spell.
As a DM, I would take that trade, any day of the week, and twice on Wednesday.

In regards to Spirit Guardians, (or any spell), the amount of people affected by a spell,
is not detailed in the casting requirements. Such details, rather, are in the Effect/Description body of text.

This means, by the text on the page, you can not give, for example, Spirit Guardians to multiple people. Just to one, and only at a range agreed upon by the DM.

Granting Spirit Guardians to an army is clearly beyond the basic use of the Wish spell.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

If I were attempting to guess at RAI, I think (in addition to components) it might include casting time. Beyond that, I think they likely intended it to follow the spell description.

 

[Asisreo]

But by that logic, you could just as easily stand in front of the amassed ranks of your local allied army, and Wish to cast Spirit Guardians with a target of "every single member of the army". Having it only affect you is one of its requirements, and if you are able to ignore those requirements entirely, there's literally no limit to how many people it can affect.

Likewise, you could stand a mile away from the opposing army, and Wish to cast an 8th-level Fireball with a range of one mile (or, heck, a million miles) and an area of effect the exact shape and size of the enemy formation. Because range and area of effect are also requirements of the spell, and if you're ignoring them completely, then there are no limits.

The only logical reading of the Requirements clause in the Wish spell is that it allows you to ignore any requirements that would otherwise prevent the spell from taking effect - not that you can ignore the requirements that shape how that effect manifests.

But that's logic you're putting into it, not the ones the designers put in. How do you quantify "The logical interpretation." And why can you say that so confidently?

Wish is supposed to be OP. The best way for wish to not break the game is not letting a player have it.

Ok, I am wholly convinced the intent is to bypass all requirements in a spell. I want you to try to convince me without attacks on my character ("That's a ridiculous ruling") or your opinions ("Unrestrained wish is broken")

What would you say to me that basically forces me to admit the intent and/or the RAW is your interpretations and all other interpretations are not RAI and/or RAI

 

[Ovinomancer]

But that's logic you're putting into it, not the ones the designers put in. How do you quantify "The logical interpretation." And why can you say that so confidently?

Wish is supposed to be OP. The best way for wish to not break the game is not letting a player have it.

Ok, I am wholly convinced the intent is to bypass all requirements in a spell. I want you to try to convince me without attacks on my character ("That's a ridiculous ruling") or your opinions ("Unrestrained wish is broken")

What would you say to me that basically forces me to admit the intent and/or the RAW is your interpretations and all other interpretations are not RAI and/or RAI

Did you not see my post above where the only things called out as requirements for a spell are the components? Like, the only thing. Range, target, duration, those only matter after the spell is cast -- they do not prevent the spell from being cast, but may cause it to fail or operate differently from the caster's desires.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Wish is supposed to be OP. The best way for wish to not break the game is not letting a player have it.

And not to let tier 4 BBEGs have it too, right? Because if the BBEG can wish the up-and-coming threat away, it makes sense for them to do so. But that's not exactly fun. It doesn't make for a good game or good story for the villain to win by wishing the heroes into oblivion.

So what makes more sense?

That the designers put in a spell that they intended the DM not to allow PCs or NPCs to have access to because it is OP and breaks the game?

Or that this interpretation of Wish, which is the only thing that makes it OP, is not the intended interpretation?