Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[FlyingChihuahua]

But, at the end of the day, if you're arguing that there is no difference between psionics and magic, well, I'm right there with you on that. Totally agree there. But, if you're arguing that the two genres are the same simply because they share tropes, then no, I totally disagree.

And that's fine.

Just don't go calling me an idiot or yourself smarter than me for thinking that, and we're good.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes but I find that to be a distortionary use of the word. You are conflating the common meaning of fantasy with the genre meaning.

A version of the Arthurian legend in which Merlin is conducting non-magical laboratory experiments does not suddenly become science fiction.

Science Fantasy isn't really a genre though. It's a lazy portmanteau. Just because something is "softer" SF, doesn't make it "science fantasy".

I think you are both slightly mis-representing what Dave's goal is.

He mentioned before that he is a scientist professionally, so he wants to make a distinction.

"Science Fiction" is a genre, and it has many different branches.

However, when discussing things like Doctor Who or Psionics, he wants to distinguish them from things like Dyson spheres or AGI (found out that is the new term for Artificial Intelligence's that have emotional intelligence) .

"Science Fantasy" or "Fantastical Science" is being used by Dave for things we know are impossible. You just cannot do these things. And in a cultural environment where science is under constant attack, Dave feels a need to point that out. Some of the "science" presented in Sci-Fi stories is just bunk, impossible thoughts that will never come true.

It isn't a claim whatsoever on the genre definition, just the feasibility of the science involved, since Science Fiction has a long history of predicting actual advances in science.

But, at the end of the day, if you're arguing that there is no difference between psionics and magic, well, I'm right there with you on that. Totally agree there. But, if you're arguing that the two genres are the same simply because they share tropes, then no, I totally disagree.

I would want to argue something, not sure how you will take it though.

I would argue there are no two genres more similar to each other than fantasy and sci-fi. As much as we ackowledge that all genres are mixes, those two are the closest cousins you can find, in my opinion.

 

[Hussar]

And that's fine.

Just don't go calling me an idiot or yourself smarter than me for thinking that, and we're good.

Oh, sorry. Did I do that? If I did, I totally apologize. I certainly never meant to.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Oh, sorry. Did I do that? If I did, I totally apologize. I certainly never meant to.

No, you never did (not that I noticed, anyway), just making sure to beat that into peoples head.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

I would argue there are no two genres more similar to each other than fantasy and sci-fi. As much as we ackowledge that all genres are mixes, those two are the closest cousins you can find, in my opinion.

No, I wouldn't say that. Depends on where you draw genre lines to be honest. Historical fiction and Crime genres very often share a LOT of elements. To the point where you have have crime stories in historical fiction novels. Westerns can cover a LOT of ground. Mystery, as a genre, appears in pretty much every single other genre out there. Horror as well.

Like I said, I define SF and Fantasy through theme. Which makes the line much starker than if you define through trope.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I'm willing to accept "Science Fantasy" (that is, Sci Fi with technology completely divorced from real science) as a distinct genre, but that just makes it a sub-genre of Sci Fi, not a hybrid genre with Fantasy.

Been thinking about this over dinner. It strikes me that Star Wars feels to me like a blend of fantasy and science fiction. In fact, despite the fact that it's got space battles and laser beams, to me it's more fantasy than science fiction.

Why is that?

I think that it might have at least something to do with these elements/tropes:

• Destiny
• The 'chosen one' as a function of heredity
• Existence of a higher power
• Clear distinction between good and evil

Thoughts?

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

I'm willing to accept "Science Fantasy" (that is, Sci Fi with technology completely divorced from real science) as a distinct genre, but that just makes it a sub-genre of Sci Fi, not a hybrid genre with Fantasy.

Been thinking about this over dinner. It strikes me that Star Wars feels to me like a blend of fantasy and science fiction. In fact, despite the fact that it's got space battles and laser beams, to me it's more fantasy than science fiction.

Why is that?

I think that it might have at least something to do with these elements/tropes:

• Destiny
• The 'chosen one' as a function of heredity
• Existence of a higher power
• Clear distinction between good and evil

Thoughts?

It's literally a fantasy story transplanted into a sci-fi setting.

A farm boy gets help from an old wizard to defeat a dark lord.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It's literally a fantasy story transplanted into a sci-fi setting.

A farm boy gets help from an old wizard to defeat a dark lord.

A farm boy...who happens to be the son of the evil king.

Anyway, so the distinction is not really about the source of the technology, is it?

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

A farm boy...who happens to be the son of the evil king.

Anyway, so the distinction is not really about the source of the technology, is it?

ya got me.

It's like a scale sort of thing though really. You got sci-fi on one end, and fantasy on the other. Like how (in my theory, anyway) comedy and horror and on the same sort of scare, though mainly to a lesser extent.

Basically, what I am ultimately try to say, is that trying to figure out a stories "genre" is something to not focus on because you just end up missing the point of the story, just arguing about the genre of a story is dumb and isn't really what you should be doing when analyzing a story. Sure, it can help define the story, but it doesn't tell you what the story is or what it mean, and sometimes even if they would like it or not.

 

[dave2008]

Yes but I find that to be a distortionary use of the word. You are conflating the common meaning of fantasy with the genre meaning.

I'm trying to separate the meanings actually. I am full on board with the distinction between the fantasy genre and the sci-fi genre. My only desire is to label some of the "science" in sci-fi as "fantasy" as it has nothing to do with real science. My desire to do this is my real world fears about the serious lack of understanding regarding science, fact, fiction, and faith in the USA. So, all I am saying is that though PSI abilities are a feature of sci-fi stories, the abilities themselves are "science-fantasy." Does that make sense?

A version of the Arthurian legend in which Merlin is conducting non-magical laboratory experiments does not suddenly become science fiction.

I agree, and that is not what I was trying to suggest. Hopefully my explanation above clarified that for you.