Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[Chaosmancer]

It's different in the same way as a Rogue doing rapier damage + 2d6 sneak attack +2 for strength is different from a Paladin doing rapier damage +2d6 smite +2 for strength.

How you get there is very important to the feel of the class.

Max, it would help if you actually posted anything that was mechanically similar there.

First, Divine Smite is 2d8, not 2d6.
Second the limits are different. Divine Smite requires hitting with a melee attack, and costs a 1st level spell slot. Meanwhile, sneak attack requires an ally adjacent (or advantage) on the attack which hits and costs nothing to utilize.

And as they progress they are different. Sneak Attack scales with level automatically. Divine Smite only gets more powerful as you spend higher level spell slots.

Meanwhile, "3 magic points for Telepathic Bond" or "A second level slot for Telepathic Bond" is identical effects and identical costs. Which was my point.

You already have these effects in the game, and if you want to make sure the class feels viable, you need to address the fact that it is a full-caster casting the spell, and how to make it different from other full casters casting that spell.

 

[Maxperson]

Max, it would help if you actually posted anything that was mechanically similar there.

First, Divine Smite is 2d8, not 2d6.

Whatever. The damage there is almost identical.

Second the limits are different. Divine Smite requires hitting with a melee attack, and costs a 1st level spell slot. Meanwhile, sneak attack requires an ally adjacent (or advantage) on the attack which hits and costs nothing to utilize.

They are still very similar. Both require an attack that hits to do X dice of extra damage.

Meanwhile, "3 magic points for Telepathic Bond" or "A second level slot for Telepathic Bond" is identical effects and identical costs. Which was my point.

Why would you assume that they are identical? With a feat the Psion can already be Telepathic with no spell casting at all.

You already have these effects in the game, and if you want to make sure the class feels viable, you need to address the fact that it is a full-caster casting the spell, and how to make it different from other full casters casting that spell.

So you advocate axing sorcerers? They use spells the Wizard already has. Bards can go away as well. Their list consists primarily wizard spells, too!

If you think that those two classes should stay due to being sufficiently different from Wizards, then Psions will also be sufficiently different.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Whatever. The damage there is almost identical.

They are still very similar. Both require an attack that hits to do X dice of extra damage.

Why would you assume that they are identical? With a feat the Psion can already be Telepathic with no spell casting at all.

So you advocate axing sorcerers? They use spells the Wizard already has. Bards can go away as well. Their list consists primarily wizard spells, too!

If you think that those two classes should stay due to being sufficiently different from Wizards, then Psions will also be sufficiently different.

Max, I generally try and be very polite, but this time I'm seriously wondering if you even bothered to read my actual point before trying to argue against it.

You want to talk about how two effects that add damage on an attack are similiar, and ignore every single difference between them? Including the very basic fact that you got the damage dice wrong.

Why would I assume they are identical effects? Because they are casting identical spells might be a good place to start with. I did specifically say they were casting the same spell for the same cost, one of them was just converted into spell points instead of slots.

And, why would I advocate for axing anything? My entire point is that the design challenge is to make them different, while using the same abilities.

Bards have many abilities to differentiate them from wizards, along with a vastly different spell list. Sorcerers, well, to be blunt, I think sorcerers as designed by RAW suck, they don't get nearly enough to make them different than wizards and just end up less powerful than wizards as a result.

And, actually, telepathy really highlights the problem with the Psion that I am trying to point out needs to be addressed.

The Telepathic feat has two abilities : 1) Talking to a creature within 30, only if you share a language and they can't talk back. 2) Casting Detect Thoughts by shrinking your Psi Die

We also have the GOO Warlock which gives you a better version of the Telepathic ability #1 in that you do not need to share a language.

The Soul Knife gives a group of people a Telepathy network. Random number of people, lasts for an hour, distance of a mile, do not need to share a languae

The Psionic Soul gives telepathy, one individual, random number of hours, and random number of miles, and the two of you must share a language

Then there is also the Telepathic Bond Spell, which is 8 creatures for an hour, no limit on distance, and no need to share a language.

Oh, and there is telepathy, you and 1 target, who can be anywhere when you cast the spell, and you can do more than talk, it also lets you send sensory information and images

Can't forget races. Kalashtar can create a psychic link. It looks like they can just talk to anyone within 10 to 200 ft (depending on level) and they do not need to share a language, and as an action you can allow them to respond for up to an hour.

Githzerai get detect thoughts once per day



So, how do we give Psions Telepathy? Do we just copy an 8th level spell? How about the 2nd level spell? Give them the Kalashtar racial ability? The Soul Knife's ability?

The question is not "do we even bother to make a psion" that is not the point I am trying to make, I am trying to make the point that giving Psion's an ability like telepathy seems like a no-brainer, but there are a ton of ways to already do that, of varying strengths and costs, and as the class for psionic abilities, they should be the best, right? But you also can't just throw balance out the window, so we need to look at all of these abilities and figure out how to navigate giving them the ability to speak telepathically without just copying something that you could already do with another psionic option.

Same for Telekinesis. The same for any other ability you want to give them, because a lot of psionic abilities already exist and need to be considered.

 

[Maxperson]

And, why would I advocate for axing anything? My entire point is that the design challenge is to make them different, while using the same abilities.

Bards have many abilities to differentiate them from wizards, along with a vastly different spell list. Sorcerers, well, to be blunt, I think sorcerers as designed by RAW suck, they don't get nearly enough to make them different than wizards and just end up less powerful than wizards as a result.

Then why would you assume that WotC would suddenly forget everything they've learned and create just another wizard? Of course the Psion will have abilities that will differentiate them from wizards. And I happen to think Sorcerers are just fine. They have abilities that Wizards don't have, so they are not just another Wizard.

We also have the GOO Warlock which gives you a better version of the Telepathic ability #1 in that you do not need to share a language.

The Soul Knife gives a group of people a Telepathy network. Random number of people, lasts for an hour, distance of a mile, do not need to share a languae

The Psionic Soul gives telepathy, one individual, random number of hours, and random number of miles, and the two of you must share a language

Then there is also the Telepathic Bond Spell, which is 8 creatures for an hour, no limit on distance, and no need to share a language.

Oh, and there is telepathy, you and 1 target, who can be anywhere when you cast the spell, and you can do more than talk, it also lets you send sensory information and images

Can't forget races. Kalashtar can create a psychic link. It looks like they can just talk to anyone within 10 to 200 ft (depending on level) and they do not need to share a language, and as an action you can allow them to respond for up to an hour.

And I think all of that is awesome! Different flavors of telepathy feel different. We don't all need classes to be completely different in order to be interesting.

So, how do we give Psions Telepathy? Do we just copy an 8th level spell? How about the 2nd level spell? Give them the Kalashtar racial ability? The Soul Knife's ability?

Or maybe a different way. It can be graded. Light: One person who cannot reply, must know language. Range 100' Moderate: Up to 3 creatures, must know language, range 100 yards, must roll talent die. High: Up to 10 creatures, range 1 mile, talent die drops to lower die automatically.

That's just a quick idea that can be tweaked or tossed out. I'm just showing that it can easily be done in a different way than the others.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Then why would you assume that WotC would suddenly forget everything they've learned and create just another wizard? Of course the Psion will have abilities that will differentiate them from wizards. And I happen to think Sorcerers are just fine. They have abilities that Wizards don't have, so they are not just another Wizard.

Because I want to contribute to the discussion beyond "I want it and WoTC will design it perfectly with no input."

I mean, why bother talking about it at all if we aren't going to tackle the issues involved.

And I think all of that is awesome! Different flavors of telepathy feel different. We don't all need classes to be completely different in order to be interesting.

I am glad you find it awesome, honestly, I find it a bit confusing to have so many different versions. I don't even know the point of the 8th level spell beyond contacting someone and having a longer conversation than a sending spell.

And while we don't need all classes to be completely different, we don't want them all to be the same either.

Or maybe a different way. It can be graded. Light: One person who cannot reply, must know language. Range 100' Moderate: Up to 3 creatures, must know language, range 100 yards, must roll talent die. High: Up to 10 creatures, range 1 mile, talent die drops to lower die automatically.

That's just a quick idea that can be tweaked or tossed out. I'm just showing that it can easily be done in a different way than the others.

That might be an interesting quick idea, question.

Would you have even thought about it if I didn't bring up the various types of telepathy? Would you have even considered it might need to be different before I pointed it out?

Because my entire point that you have decided to discuss with me, and accuse me of not wanting a Psion in the process, is that to design a Psion you have to consider how to make it different than a wizard with the same spell list.

That was it, we have to make sure the class is different than something we already have and can easily build, and you decided to disagree with me.

 

[Maxperson]

Because I want to contribute to the discussion beyond "I want it and WoTC will design it perfectly with no input."

I mean, why bother talking about it at all if we aren't going to tackle the issues involved.

Sure, but it seemed like you were focusing on the spells. Most of the spells being the same as other classes have, with a few new ones seems fine to me.

Where most of the discussion should be in my opinion, is in the class abilities, of which the telepathy idea could be one.

And while we don't need all classes to be completely different, we don't want them all to be the same either.

I agree.

Would you have even thought about it if I didn't bring up the various types of telepathy? Would you have even considered it might need to be different before I pointed it out?

Just randomly? Probably not. If I were sitting down to design the class, maybe. It would depend on if I thought telepathy should be a class ability or not.

Because my entire point that you have decided to discuss with me, and accuse me of not wanting a Psion in the process, is that to design a Psion you have to consider how to make it different than a wizard with the same spell list.

That was it, we have to make sure the class is different than something we already have and can easily build, and you decided to disagree with me.

As I said above, it really seemed like you were saying that the Psion and Wizard were the same, because of the same or mostly same spell list. There are cleric spells and such that should also probably make the Psion list, such as Command and Enhance Ability, so the list would also differentiate it from Wizards.

 

[Samloyal23]

You cannot have a Psion that is sufficiently different from the Wizard to be worth playing if it uses spells. Psionics needs to be a non-magical supernatural power with its own rules or it is just going to be magic with new age window dressing. That is why it was made skill-based in 2E.

 

[Aldarc]

If your conception of a psion is to read minds, alter memories, and pick things up with telekinesis, then when you build a class for that you need to keep in mind that an Enchanter wizard can do all these things with spells. I couldn't give a single care to the aesthetics or class fantasy, that isn't the point.

The point is that if the class is built in such a way that does not distinguish it mechanically from what a wizard with the correct spell list can already do, then you have failed to create anything worth playing. How is "I spend 3 psi points and bind us in a telepathic bond for an hour" different from just casting Rary's telepathic bond? How do we distinguish Telekinesis the spell from Telekinesis the ability?

This is important if you actually want a working class. Because if it is just a funny looking wizard, or worse, a funny looking wizard who is weaker than a normal wizard, then you have not accomplished your goal.

There are a number of classes that can do many of the same things as each other, particularly if spells are the determining factor. However, I think a big part of class design is about the ability to perform their powers reliably and consistently better than a non-specialist. For example, other characters can track using the Survival skill, but the Ranger has tools that allow them to do it more readily and naturally: Natural Explorer, Favored Enemy, Land's Stride, and Primeval Awareness. Similarly, an enchanting wizard can perform telekinesis and telepathy, but we would expect that a psion can do it better with greater reliability, versatility, etc. This is the trade-off for a psion not having the full gamut of spells to know and cast as a wizard.

You cannot have a Psion that is sufficiently different from the Wizard to be worth playing if it uses spells. Psionics needs to be a non-magical supernatural power with its own rules or it is just going to be magic with new age window dressing. That is why it was made skill-based in 2E.

Let's be clear here: I can. You can't.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think more importantly than who is prepared to "accept" what is this:

1) WotC are not offering a skill based psionic system for 5e.

2) WotC are not going to offer a skill based psionic system for 5e.

3) As far as I know no 3PP does a skill based psionic system for 5e.

4) If you want a skill based psionic system in 5e the only you are going to get it is if you homebrew it yourself.

 

[Maxperson]

You cannot have a Psion that is sufficiently different from the Wizard to be worth playing if it uses spells. Psionics needs to be a non-magical supernatural power with its own rules or it is just going to be magic with new age window dressing. That is why it was made skill-based in 2E.

This view is in the very small minority.