D&D General Hey, are we all cool with having to buy the same book twice, or what?

[Argyle King]

I've likely purchased Skyrim more times than I've purchased copies of D&D books.

If you make a product that I enjoy, I'm willing to pay for it.

Personally, I vastly prefer hard copy over pdf. For whatever reason, I absorb information better from a physical book than I do from a computer screen. This is something I've noticed while taking college courses online and while trying to learn new game systems. I cannot explain why or what the difference is, but I do notice a difference.

That being said, there certainly are benefits to having digital copies of books. For games that I already know well and for which I own a large collection of books, being able to search for key terms and topics at the push of a button is nice. This especially speeds things up when trying to find an unfamiliar rule or obscure rule.

I have different reasons for wanting different kinds of copies. I certainly do not buy every book twice, but if it's a core book or something I use a lot, I may buy two versions.

In some cases, I have bought more than one physical copy of a book because I knew that it was something the group as a whole would use a lot, and I don't mind enhancing the ability of my friend group to play games together.

 

[Lanefan]

You probably don't read Software License Agreements / End User License Agreements do you? Or other legal docs that go along with digital content?

Yes, I do sometimes, and am often thoroughly disgusted with what's in there. That said, if I want the product I've no choice.

I don't disagree with you, mind. But I understand that when you purchase something, you may not purchase everything and complete unrestricted access to something. You "buy" a house or a piece of land, you usually don't get the water or mining rights for that piece of property. You "buy" a product at the store does not give you the right to reveres engineer and produce copies of it. You "buy" a book means you have the physical copy, but it doesn't mean you can reproduce or redistribute it. You "buy" a digital product your rights are limited too.

Buying a house or a store product or a book, however, does not give the vendor the right to come along at some later indeterminate time and take it away from me (assuming I've paid in full for it) or deny me further use of it.

If it's important to you, then you should read the legal terms of what you are buying.

The problem is that sometimes those legal terms contain clauses that in my opinion should be themselves illegal.

For instance, Roll20 has this (to me) very important part of it's Marketplace EULA;

See also section 3.9 and 7.3 (c) for additional clauses that allow your "purchases" to be removed from your use/access.

And from the Terms of Service;


All of which is completely reasonable, and probably necessary for a SaaS product.

What does 'SaaS' mean?

It would be crazy to guarantee perpetual access to something you "buy" from Roll20.

Of course, that's for a SaaS product. Fantasy Grounds has no such reasonable restrictions because as a client-server product they don't need it. Read there EULA.

To me the difference between these two architectures and their licensing was important to me. It was one of the top reasons I chose FG over Roll20. But it might be why you chose a printed book over one of the various digital formats.

If I buy what I think is a pdf of something, I expect to own that copy and be able to access/use it for life,just as if it was a hard-copy book. But if the pdf isn't downloadable and all I'm actually buying is the ability to access it on someone else's server, then as far as I'm concerned the vendor has made a commitment to maintain that access in perpetuity.

I don't do online or VTT gaming so whatever Fantasy Grounds or Roll 20 specifically do has no effect on me.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Since DND Beyond provides a different and expanded product compared to a pdf...what's stopping them from also selling pdfs?

 

[Parmandur]

Since DND Beyond provides a different and expanded product compared to a pdf...what's stopping them from also selling pdfs?

Per Nathan Stewart, WotC feels PDFs are not an ideal customer experience.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Per Nathan Stewart, WotC feels PDFs are not an ideal customer experience.

Well, if they had sold them, I'd already have a pdf of at least my core books, so I wouldn't be sitting in my new apartment without any of my D&D books (wouldn't fit on the plane) during a pandemic that produces crazy logistical issues with shipping to my particular location at the moment. Since I have no interest in what DND Beyond does, I think my experience of pdfs not being available is significantly less ideal than it would be if they were available.

That's the essence of anecdotal experience, naturally, but I really think they have some sort of reason they aren't sharing, and in this particular case I don't think it's a good one.

 

[Oofta]

...but I really think they have some sort of reason they aren't sharing, and in this particular case I don't think it's a good one.

I can think of a half dozen reasons they aren't selling PDFs. None of them are particularly nefarious. Basically it boils down to providing a PDF would be overhead they don't want to deal with given the structure of their supply chain and they don't think it would be profitable.

There's no evil plot to make you suffer, PDFs simply aren't a justifiable expenditure on return. If it were they would sell them.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, if they had sold them, I'd already have a pdf of at least my core books, so I wouldn't be sitting in my new apartment without any of my D&D books (wouldn't fit on the plane) during a pandemic that produces crazy logistical issues with shipping to my particular location at the moment. Since I have no interest in what DND Beyond does, I think my experience of pdfs not being available is significantly less ideal than it would be if they were available.

That's the essence of anecdotal experience, naturally, but I really think they have some sort of reason they aren't sharing, and in this particular case I don't think it's a good one.

No reason to assume occult reasons when rational explanations have been provided. PDFs are not a great interface.

 

[billd91]

Per Nathan Stewart, WotC feels PDFs are not an ideal customer experience.

I think that's kind of a bogus reason. They're not perfect, but they are a pretty good format for the convenience of portable devices. Print editions aren't exactly an ideal customer experience when circumstances make toting around multiple books on a single iPad better. My iPad, capable of carrying all of my (legal) Pathfinder PDFs, is far more ideal for a game convention or even toting to a friend's house than toting a milk crate or backpack full of heavy books. The ideal customer experience is ultimately decided by the customer and their needs and that market is changing and has been changing since before WotC made the decision in the 4e time frame to turn away from selling PDFs of their current edition (and then they cited piracy as a significant reason - and we know how well that worked).

At best, I figure this is a convenient narrative for them because they probably feel they can make more money licensing out the ability to distribute electronic versions than on the electronic versions themselves. I doubt it is a significant reason in and of itself.

 

[Umbran]

... and in this particular case I don't think it's a good one.

Define "good reason", in a way that does not imply that you know their business better than they do.

 

[Parmandur]

I think that's kind of a bogus reason. They're not perfect, but they are a pretty good format for the convenience of portable devices. Print editions aren't exactly an ideal customer experience when circumstances make toting around multiple books on a single iPad better. My iPad, capable of carrying all of my (legal) Pathfinder PDFs, is far more ideal for a game convention or even toting to a friend's house than toting a milk crate or backpack full of heavy books. The ideal customer experience is ultimately decided by the customer and their needs and that market is changing and has been changing since before WotC made the decision in the 4e time frame to turn away from selling PDFs of their current edition (and then they cited piracy as a significant reason - and we know how well that worked).

At best, I figure this is a convenient narrative for them because they probably feel they can make more money licensing out the ability to distribute electronic versions than on the electronic versions themselves. I doubt it is a significant reason in and of itself.

The relevant comparison is not book vs. PDF, but PDF vs. robust digital toolset. There is no reason I can see to discount Stewart's explanation about their UX findings, since reading PDFs is kind of terrible. I have a ton of PDFs that I never read, because the experience of doing so on a screen is actually terrible.