Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

It was 28 pages. 2 pages of intro, 2 of general class mechanics, 6 pages of subclass explanation, 16 pages of "spells" and 2 pages of talents.

Compare that to Wizard with 1 page of intro, 2 pages of general class mechanics, 5 pages of subclass explanation and 30+ pages of spells.

Same number of pages on general mechanics. Wizards have 1 less page of subclass explanation. Wizards have at least double the number of spell pages for players to learn. Wizards have no talents pages.

The complexity is pretty even, unless you count powers/spells in that, in which case the Wizard dwarfs the Psion in complexity.

Complexity=/=Page Count.
The fact that the wizard has more pages explaining how to cast spells and what the spells are don't mean that a psion can't be significantly more simple to understand. I would additionally have less pages, here's what it'd look like:

1-2 pages of intro. 3-4 pages of general class mechanics. 15ish pages of subclass information. 1-2 pages of talents.
Overall it would be between 20 pages to 23 pages. Significantly less to read, with the powers being built into the subclasses, except the talents.

 

[Aldarc]

Gimmicky:

Losing the die on a high roll is not rewarding:

Lack of control due to random die size changes:

What does the up and down psi dice mechanic actually add to either psionics flavor or the subclass that could not be represented through other pre-existing means? Why bother designing this as part of psionics at all?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Exhibit A:

It has to be a class, because in order to do psionics properly, it cannot be spell based.

...

It cannot be based on spellcasting, because it should scale differently.

...

It cannot be a spellcaster in the sense that they use spell slots or sorcery points to cast Bigby's Hand or Rary's Telepathic Bond or Telekinesis.

Exhibit B:

What evidence do you have for this statement? The fact that they haven't made a simple psion class in 5e yet is not proof that it can't be done.

Surely you see the irony in making grand, definitive, black & white statements, and then demanding to know what evidence somebody else has for their own claim.

 

[Maxperson]

Complexity=/=Page Count.
The fact that the wizard has more pages explaining how to cast spells and what the spells are don't mean that a psion can't be significantly more simple to understand. I would additionally have less pages, here's what it'd look like:

Number of spells do equal complexity, though. The more choices, and Wizards dwarf Mystics for choices, the more combinations and more complexity. That's why the Wizard page count matters.

There are 80 different Wizard spells just from Cantrips to 2nd level. There are 38 total disciplines, but each discipline has multiple abilities within them. Once you select your discipline, there are no choices to be made about which powers you get. They are set for you. And you only get a few that you can choose from, depending on your subclass. Wizards on the other hand have to make choices about which spells to learn, and once learned they have to make more choices about which spells to have ready to cast. Wizard casting is much more complex.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Surely you see the irony in making grand, definitive, black & white statements, and then demanding to know what evidence somebody else has for their own claim.

I make those statements based on what I would like the psionic 5e system to be like. They're based on opinions. Ovinomancer claimed:

And, as for simple, if you're introducing a brand new system of magic ("powers"), there's no way you're going to get simple. It's going to look like the Mystic -- many pages.

Saying that there's no way to make a simple psionic class system. That's not opinion based. That's a claim with nothing to support it.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Number of spells do equal complexity, though. The more choices, and Wizards dwarf Mystics for choices, the more combinations and more complexity. That's why the Wizard page count matters.

Yes, and the Psion that I would like in order to be less complex would have less options, but be the same in power.

There are 80 different Wizard spells just from Cantrips to 2nd level. There are 38 total disciplines, but each discipline has multiple abilities within them. Once you select your discipline, there are no choices to be made about which powers you get. They are set for you. And you only get a few that you can choose from, depending on your subclass. Wizards on the other hand have to make choices about which spells to learn, and once learned they have to make more choices about which spells to have ready to cast. Wizard casting is much more complex.

Yes, spellcasting is much more complex. That's partially why I want a simplified psionic "casting" system. It would be simpler than spellcasting, have less options, and would be easier to choose options for.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

What is wrong to me is:

1. No psion based class.
2. They make psionics be spellcasting.
3. It's complicated as f*ck.

That's what would be wrong for me.

We will see a psion/mysthic class and other psionic base classes, altought someones will be recycled as subclasses.

I guess we will see psionic power points because players are used to that. And without verbal or somatic components.

What part is complicated?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

We will see a psion/mysthic class and other psionic base classes, altought someones will be recycled as subclasses.

I guess we will see psionic power points because players are used to that. And without verbal or somatic components.

What part is complicated?

I was saying that if they make another psionic system in the UA, I will vote against certain parts of it if they're not publishing a simple non-spellcaster psionic focused class.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'm sure there's some leeway to look at messing with, say, the concentration tag and dependent submechanics if need be by way of.. "limiters"

Sure, tautologically Wizards will design what Wizards designs. This is a trivial observation along the lines of, "it's raining when it rains."

We, however, will consume what Wizards designs, and, we have input into what Wizards designs. If the sum extent of your input on a possibke design point is that Wizards might design something, well, okay, thanks for that. Not very interesting.

Discussion of what design should accomplish, especially when feedback on design is open, should drill a bit further down than noting designers have unspecified and potentially unlimited options. The point of the feedback isn't to let Wizards know this, but to curtail those options to those most palatable.

So, yeah, the bland pronouncement of the obvious is maybe not as clever as you think it is.

I believe that the post was intended in support of your statement that removing VSM requirements was not an inconsequential power change, and so some commensurate balancing limiters should be applied.
It was phrased in a constructive fashion, and was a good though: earlier in the thread we have been considering practical concepts and mechanics, and concepts like those Catulle suggested had come up.

What does the up and down psi dice mechanic actually add to either psionics flavor or the subclass that could not be represented through other pre-existing means? Why bother designing this as part of psionics at all?

Probably as a new mechanic to help distinguish the psions/psionics from existing classes/mechanics.

Number of spells do equal complexity, though. The more choices, and Wizards dwarf Mystics for choices, the more combinations and more complexity. That's why the Wizard page count matters.

There are 80 different Wizard spells just from Cantrips to 2nd level. There are 38 total disciplines, but each discipline has multiple abilities within them. Once you select your discipline, there are no choices to be made about which powers you get. They are set for you. And you only get a few that you can choose from, depending on your subclass. Wizards on the other hand have to make choices about which spells to learn, and once learned they have to make more choices about which spells to have ready to cast. Wizard casting is much more complex.

On the other hand, most of those wizard spells, and the vast majority of the spellcasting rules are shared by (too(?)) many other classes. Thus efficiency in terms of page count is probably still in the wizard's favour.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, and the Psion that I would like in order to be less complex would have less options, but be the same in power.

Yes, spellcasting is much more complex. That's partially why I want a simplified psionic "casting" system. It would be simpler than spellcasting, have less options, and would be easier to choose options for.

You said, "Must be easy to understand. (5e philosophy.)"

If that's the 5e philosophy, Wizards are easy to understand(and they are). The amount of complexity in 5e is fairly low compared to prior editions. Mystics me the 5e standard for simplicity, even if they weren't as simple as the Champion.