D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[Eyes of Nine]

Ah... never looked at that.

As far as the setup, I would limit it to things that people are most likely to have: PHB, XGtE, SCAG, etc. I think there was another thread about what books people own and maybe that would be a good place for someone to start?

I think Wildemount is the best selling non-core WotC D&D book since Xanathar's... So it's likely people have it - although its penetration into the EnWorld crowd may not be as high a %% as into the general D&D playing public.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think Wildemount is the best selling non-core WotC D&D book since Xanathar's... So it's likely people have it - although its penetration into the EnWorld crowd may not be as high a %% as into the general D&D playing public.

Are there any stats on that?

On the one hand, it seems somewhat surprising to me, as it is the (non-AP) book I have had the least desire to own; I haven't purchased it yet, and I'm already looking forward to Theros!

On the other hand, I know that Critical Role is super popular with people that aren't me.

On the third hand, I need to get this extra appendage looked at; body gets out of whack when you get old.

 

[Helldritch]

No feat no magical item no money

Let's show how to play a Meteor Swarm Battle.

1) The Dragon sorc can fly and avoid any enemy meteor swarm.

2) As action use Aasimar's Radiant Consumption for extra (No save) 30 radiant damage on your spell.

3) Cast a Quickened Empowered Elemental Affiinity Radiant Consumption Meteor Swarm as bonus action.
It's 154 with empowered + 5 elemental afinity + 30 Radiant Consumption for Sweet 189 damage.
The Simulacrum just cast Subtle Power Word Stun / Sleep (No counterspell) (If you are close enough)
Or just use its action for Radiant Soul and cast quickened empowered radiant soul Insect Plague at 320 range as bonus action if you are on long range.
Upcasted to level 8 is 8d10 Empowered +30.

Well It's over.

The Dragon Sorc, Shadow sorc or whatever sorc loses initiative. All the time. Because the diviner saw it in the tendrils and wisps of the future. You don't fly, you can't even use react spells as the simulacrums will counter spell anything (3 of these). You will take this damage and you will not save because guess what? The diviner saw it the tendrils and wisps of the future. You, sir are simply dead. Not because I like to say that. But because I saw it. 80d6 of damage down to 40d6 for your draconic + 20d6 of bludgeon that is 210 damage on average. And if you get lucky (which you won't, the diviner saw it in the tendrils and wisps of the future) the simulacrums will shoot you down with melf's acid arrows. You assume that you will win initiative. You will not. Against a warmage you might. But not against a diviner. A sad thing but true.

 

[Asisreo]

It's no wonder warlcok wouldn't win. It seems more like a disease than a class. shutters

 

[Hohige]

The Dragon Sorc, Shadow sorc or whatever sorc loses initiative. All the time. Because the diviner saw it in the tendrils and wisps of the future. You don't fly, you can't even use react spells as the simulacrums will counter spell anything (3 of these). You will take this damage and you will not save because guess what? The diviner saw it the tendrils and wisps of the future. You, sir are simply dead. Not because I like to say that. But because I saw it. 80d6 of damage down to 40d6 for your draconic + 20d6 of bludgeon that is 210 damage on average. And if you get lucky (which you won't, the diviner saw it in the tendrils and wisps of the future) the simulacrums will shoot you down with melf's acid arrows. You assume that you will win initiative. You will not. Against a warmage you might. But not against a diviner. A sad thing but true.

Poor diviner... When look the Dragon Sorcerer coming at the sky and see how useless is the diviner.
"You don't fly". Really? It's new.
"You can't use react spell". The Sorcerer is the best counterspeller of the game. Subtle Spell say hello to you. You will always lose a counterspell battle against a sorcerer. Portent is useless here.
The sorcerer has simulacrum to say hello to you..


All of it falls when the enemy is just flying and ignore completely your spell.
Now, watch the Wizard dying against Empowered Distant Insect Plague and Empowered Distant Elemental afinity Meteor Swarm + Radiant Soul at
2 Mile range for sweet 190 damage.
Repeat, 2 Mile. Who will first?
Your simulacrum and you are dead at 2 miles.
"What is that point in the sky? "It's Meteor Swarm "

 

[DND_Reborn]

Just to put this to rest, here you go:

Divination Wizard called Adam. Adam has a Simulacrum called Bob.

Bob has a 7th, 8th, and 9th level slot.
Bob creates a Simulacrum called Conan,
Bob now has just an 8th and 9th level slot.

Conan uses his 8th level slot to create a Simulacrum, Dirk. Dirk has only a 9th level slot.

Dirk uses his 9th level slot to create Erik.

Adam recovers all his slots.
Bob has 4/3/3/3/3/2/--/--/1/1
Conan has 4/3/3/3/3/2/--/--/--/1
Dirk has 4/3/3/3/3/2/--/--/--/--
Erik has 4/3/3/3/3/2/--/--/--/--

All 5 of them have Portent. All roll 3d20's for Portent. Whichever has the lowest roll assigns it to the opponent for initiative (and his simulcrum for the Sorcerer).
All the highest rolls are given to Adam and the Simulacrums.

Ok, now not even trying to be imaginative, they all cast Magic Missile at level 6 except Adam and Bob, who both cast Meteor Swarm. The odds of them not all going first is practically zero.

Adam does 20d6 bludgeoning and 20d6 fire.
Bob does 20d6 bludgeoning and 20d6 fire.
The other three deal an average of 28 force damage from 8 magic missiles each, for a total of 84 force damage.

Oh, and all those portent rolls that weren't used before, are now used to make the opponent (and his simulacrum) fail the DEX saves versus the Meteor Swarms.

Basically about 364 damage, which kills EVERY challenger outright without them ever getting to lift a finger.

Done and done.

Everyone who didn't vote WIZARD before can now change their vote.

To be fair, Contingency spells could drag this out to round 2 or 3, but does anyone really think they can defeat 5 archmages???

 

[Hohige]

Just to put this to rest, here you go:

Divination Wizard called Adam. Adam has a Simulacrum called Bob.

Bob has a 7th, 8th, and 9th level slot.
Bob creates a Simulacrum called Conan,
Bob now has just an 8th and 9th level slot.

Conan uses his 8th level slot to create a Simulacrum, Dirk. Dirk has only a 9th level slot.

Dirk uses his 9th level slot to create Erik.

Adam recovers all his slots.
Bob has 4/3/3/3/3/2/--/--/1/1
Conan has 4/3/3/3/3/2/--/--/--/1
Dirk has 4/3/3/3/3/2/--/--/--/--
Erik has 4/3/3/3/3/2/--/--/--/--

All 5 of them have Portent. All roll 2d20. Whichever has the lowest roll assigns it to the opponent for initiative (and his simulcrum for the Sorcerer).
All the highest rolls are given to Adam and the Simulacrums.

Ok, now not even trying to be imaginative, they all cast Magic Missile at level 6 except Adam and Bob, who both cast Meteor Swarm. The odds of them not all going first is practically zero.

Adam does 20d6 bludgeoning and 20d6 fire.
Bob does 20d6 bludgeoning and 20d6 fire.
The other three deal an average of 28 force damage from 8 magic missiles each, for a total of 112 force damage.

Oh, and all those portent rolls that weren't used before, are now used to make the opponent (and his simulacrum) fail the DEX saves versus the Meteor Swarms.

Basically about 392 damage, which kills EVERY challenger outright without them ever getting to lift a finger.

Done and done.

Everyone who didn't vote WIZARD before can now change their vote.

Great, nice in theory but It's 8h casting and spending 1500 gold. DM fiat.
With DM fiat, the sorcerer just create your own Scroll of Wish and again, Meteor Swarm at 2 miles.
Also, with DM fiat the Sorcerer and get inffinite simulacra and it's coffeeelock. Well, Wizards good try.

Lets end it.

Just accept the overpowered Meteor Swarm at 2 miles wich literraly oblitare your simulacrum and the wizard.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Great, nice in theory but It's 8h casting and spending 1500 gold. DM fiat.
With DM fiat, the sorcerer just create your own Scroll of Wish and again, Meteor Swarm at 2 miles.
Also, with DM fiat the Sorcerer and get inffinite simulacra and it's coffeeelock. Well, Wizards good try.

Lets end it.

Just accept the overpowered Meteor Swarm at 2 miles wich literraly oblitare your simulacrum and the wizard.

1500 gold is NOTHING at 20th level (as a WISH spell could create 25000 gp by itself) so forget DM fiat.

The Wizard doesn't have to rely on Wish scrolls, which by XGtE requires 250,000 gold EACH. Yeah, who is stretching for DM fiat now???

You also need to set the range to two miles, ad nuseum, to give yourself the situation to win? Who says my band is huddled nicely together?
My contingency: if an attack or spell deals more than 50 damage (or whatever), I dimension door 200 feet up (or wherever). Now I am not even in your Meteor Swarm and you wasted it. It could go on and on... but you'll lose.

So, sure, I'll put my band of 5 archmages against your duet of sorcerers any day and kick them to the curb. The simple fact is that it is 5-2 by default (without your crazy infinite wish scrolls).

I did end it and I find it ridiculous that you simply can't admit it: WIZARD RULES and SORCERERS DROOL!

 

[Hohige]

1500 gold is NOTHING at 20th level (as a WISH spell could create 25000 gp by itself) so forget DM fiat.

The Wizard doesn't have to rely on Wish scrolls, which by XGtE requires 250,000 gold EACH.

Is you using wish to create a 25.000gold and 1/3 chance to lose wish forever.
DM fiat and go Wish scroll and all is over infinite simulacra at is flying machines that hits at 2 miles.
Lets be honest, Wizard is just great on theory. Hahaha nothing about it will come to play. Never

 

[Asisreo]

1500 gold is NOTHING at 20th level (as a WISH spell could create 25000 gp by itself) so forget DM fiat.

The Wizard doesn't have to rely on Wish scrolls, which by XGtE requires 250,000 gold EACH. Yeah, who is stretching for DM fiat now???

You also need to set the range to two miles, ad nuseum, to give yourself the situation to win? Who says my band is huddled nicely together?
My contingency: if an attack or spell deals more than 50 damage (or whatever), I dimension door 200 feet up (or wherever). Now I am not even in your Meteor Swarm and you wasted it. It could go on and on... but you'll lose.

So, sure, I'll put my band of 5 archmages against your duet of sorcerers any day and kick them to the curb. The simple fact is that it is 5-2 by default (without your crazy infinite wish scrolls).

I did end it and I find it ridiculous that you simply can't admit it: WIZARD RULES and SORCERERS DROOL!

Adam, on average, would have 80hp without con. Let's say he has a +3 con, just to be generous. That puts him on average of 140hp. When Adam made Bob, Bob now has 70hp. It would be a spiral of maximum health if they simulacrum from each other. So conan, dirk, and erik also has 70hp. It's not a stretch to say that the dream team of wizards go first.

2 of the squad has nothing above 6th level and Adam has all his spell slots. It's a powerful start indeed.

So it would be fair that the sorcerer spends his time casting Etherealness. Right? So the battle starts with the team of wizards having to face an ethereal sorcerer. There's certainly some things they can try to do to get around this, but they can be a bit convoluted. The wizard may not even know the battle begun. The sorcerer uses his action to reappear and uses Quicken Meteor Swarm. Now the average of each hit is actually the average HP of Bob, the original spellcaster. So each simulacrum has very low odds of surviving. If any of the boosted snowmen decide to counterspell, the sorcerer subtle counterspells back.