D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

Which Class Would Win?



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Still seems to me that a class feature that says it doubles the range of a spell should reasonably double the range you are able to cast a spell. But you keep saying it doens't do that for counterspell which is so odd.

Because it's an oddly worded spell. I think there are only 7 reaction spells in the game, so they are all inherently a little odd. Shield retroactively causes the thing that triggered it to not happen for goodness sake.

And it absolutely does extend the range of counterspell, just not in a generally useful way. It extends the range of Shillelagh as well, but the spell would then instantly end because you are not holding the weapon (surely even the "but touch spells" people can agree on that). Also useless but applicable to swift quiver. Also probably useless with "if it's ever more than X feet from you" spells like Mage Hand, but that is a whole different debate.

I guess our fundamental disagreement is that the the "it works" people feel that Distant has to be effective with everything without a range of self for the sake consistency, and I am of the belief that having so few valid spells not be meaningfully useful with Distant metamagic is all the more reason to just accept that it doesn't work in a few oddball edge cases with a few oddball spells.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Of course it affects the trigger. You wouldn't be able to cast it 120 ft (double the distance) if it didn't affect the trigger...
No, it doesn't, despite your insistence that it does. I tweeted JC so i am waiting to see if he responds. Anyway, Distant Spell affects the Range, not the triggering evening.

I've already shown a case where you can cast it to affect a creature 90 feet away from you. So, using Distant Spell on Counterspell can be useful.

My other posts already demonstrate this well enough. If you don't agree (obviously, you don't) that is your prerogative of course but the way reactions are triggered doesn't change because you want Distant Spell to apply to a spell you are not even casting yet.

I'm starting to think you might be the other Sorcerer vote in this poll?
 


Hoffmand

Explorer
Who has the best nova abilities. I am curious how paladin and sorcerers do. But the hp of the Druid wild shaping and barbarian bear totem makes me curious also. Really not sure. Haven’t played enough 20th level for pvp purposes.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
If you can distant spell Counterspell, then what is the point of giving the reaction a 60 foot limit in the first place?
Because redundancy makes things easier to understand.

By stating that 60 foot range in two spots, it is easier to understand how the spell works.

Much like spells with a range "Touch" also mention "the creature you touch" in the description. They could remove one or the other, but by having both, you get redundancy.

And redundancy makes things easier to understand.

Similarly, spells that describe their somatic component? That component should go away with Subtle Spell, so the described bit should be edited out.
 




Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
No, it doesn't, despite your insistence that it does. I tweeted JC so i am waiting to see if he responds. Anyway, Distant Spell affects the Range, not the triggering evening.

JC Previously:


I think that generally backs your position (range, not other aspects of the spell).
 


Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
No it doesn’t support his position at all as I’ve never claimed or thought it would increase aoe size.

1. Distant spell doesn't change area of effect:


2. Distant spell doesn't change cone or line ranges (aka, "self"):


3. Distant spell doesn't change anything except range.


Given the consistent rulings stating Distant Spell does not change anything except range, including the very specific ruling stating it does change anything except range, I am unclear how Distant Spell would affect the text of the conditional trigger for counterspell ... that is not part of the range.

But that's me. Your table, your rules.
 
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DND_Reborn

Legend
No it doesn’t support his position at all as I’ve never claimed or thought it would increase aoe size.

Here. Dave responded to my Tweet and JC confirmed he is correct.



So, according to the Gospel of JC, you cannot modify the trigger of Counterspell, thus a creature casting a spell must be within 60 feet.

If you want to rule otherwise at your table, do so, but it is not RAW nor supported by the game designers, namely JC.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
So, according to the Gospel of JC, you cannot modify the trigger of Counterspell, thus a creature casting a spell must be within 60 feet.

If you want to rule otherwise at your table, do so, but it is not RAW nor supported by the game designers, namely JC.

That's unsurprising.

By the way, it's really great that JC and others respond like that on twitter. Everytime I think twitter is completely useless and a tire fire, I am reminded that there are some positive things too!
 

That's unsurprising.

By the way, it's really great that JC and others respond like that on twitter. Everytime I think twitter is completely useless and a tire fire, I am reminded that there are some positive things too!

Shooting an occasional question to the D&D team is literally the only reason I have Twitter. Although that isn't working for me anymore. They haven't responded to anything for years, and I only sent like 2 or 3 tweets a year, so its not like I was pestering them. I think it's a Twitter setting automatically blocking me because I don't have enough content on the account.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Shooting an occasional question to the D&D team is literally the only reason I have Twitter. Although that isn't working for me anymore. They haven't responded to anything for years, and I only sent like 2 or 3 tweets a year, so its not like I was pestering them. I think it's a Twitter setting automatically blocking me because I don't have enough content on the account.
Well, I would guess that isn't the reason because I just created my account so I could Tweet JC about this. I think it more likely caught his attention because some others chimed in responses and asked for him to comment as well.

Before, I've asked questions through the Sage Advice e-mail, but never received any answers that way. :(

Either way, I am glad this is resolved at least so we can move on. :)
 

Well, I would guess that isn't the reason because I just created my account so I could Tweet JC about this. I think it more likely caught his attention because some others chimed in responses and asked for him to comment as well.

Before, I've asked questions through the Sage Advice e-mail, but never received any answers that way. :(

Either way, I am glad this is resolved at least so we can move on. :)

Well the other likely possibility is that at some point they shifted to preferring to answer the same obvious questions repeatedly (not the question on this thread, but some of the basics that have been answered time and again) over addressing the more meaningful questions that don't have simple answers. Or perhaps they just decided they didn't like answering me. It was definitely a clear thing one way or another. The nature of my questions didn't change, but the presence of responses completely disappeared. Again, we're talking 2 or 3 times a year of good questions that generally haven't been asked before, not a constant barrage of criticism or dumb questions.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Well the other likely possibility is that at some point they shifted to preferring to answer the same obvious questions repeatedly (not the question on this thread, but some of the basics that have been answered time and again) over addressing the more meaningful questions that don't have simple answers. Or perhaps they just decided they didn't like answering me. It was definitely a clear thing one way or another. The nature of my questions didn't change, but the presence of responses completely disappeared. Again, we're talking 2 or 3 times a year of good questions that generally haven't been asked before, not a constant barrage of criticism or dumb questions.
Out of curiosity, what were some of your questions? (If you don't mind me asking...)
 

Sure. I was going to just list all the tweets, but it's kind of a mess (not very adept with Twitter), so here are some questions that I asked (either to Jeremy Crawford alone, or to him plus Mike Mearls and Chris Perkins) that still seem relevant. Also, it looks like I sent more than I thought (mostly earlier on), and I did get an answer in 2017 to a question about how many pages a spell takes up in a spell book (no rule, 1 page per level is a common house rule). Due to lack of responses, I haven't sent any tweets in 2 years.

"Hey guys, is there any hope we'll eventually see the celestial Eladrin (by whatever name), Guardinals, and Archons?" (2018)

"What is the hp range by CR on the DMG monster creation table derived from? Having a tough time reverse engineering it." (2018)

"Now that Intermediate/Demi god ranks are gone--any guidance for assigning 5e ranks to them?" (2017)

"Is it correct that removing object from backpack is free (potion example in PHB); but handy haversack takes an action?" (2017)

"I don't understand Passive Perception always being on in context of paragraph 1 of "Other Activities" Basic Rules p 65" (2017) - In context of Jeremy Crawford having recently said that you always get your Passive Perception (a ruling I disagree with in most non-combat situations).

"Is Dueling Fighting Style intended to work with a thrown melee weapon (ie, throwing a dagger)?" (2016)

"Couatl's prof bonus is 1 higher than expected. No errata intentional?" (2015) - The Couatl is all screwed up. It's actual CR should be higher than 4, but I think they artificially reduced it so you could summon it with conjure celestial, and then neglected to reduce the Proficiency bonus for some of its numbers. Still no errata for it several printings later.

"Mounted combat rules say choose to control or leave unintelligent mount independent. Does find steed remove second option?" (2015) - I meant to say "intelligent mount" but they would have figured that out.

"Is it intentional that One with Shadows doesn't allow you to hide in dim light?" (2015)
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
"Couatl's prof bonus is 1 higher than expected. No errata intentional?" (2015) - The Couatl is all screwed up. It's actual CR should be higher than 4, but I think they artificially reduced it so you could summon it with conjure celestial, and then neglected to reduce the Proficiency bonus for some of its numbers. Still no errata for it several printings later.
From a glance, the coatl's cr looks strange, defensively, this bad boy is a walking tank at level 4. I'll look into it later.

Assuming the CR is correct, it's proficiency bonus is good with the DC's. I think their weapon attacks are built-in magic weapons. They have a +1 bonus and are magical, so a couatl's natural weapons may be natural magic weapons. It's not explicitly written that way in the MM, though.
 

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