WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Danzauker]

Pssst... FYI, Fettucine Alfredo was invented in Rome but it certainly became popular and ubiquitous in the US. You can look this up yourself.

I looked it up. and I can assure alfredo sauce as known in america has little to do with the original.

 

[Aldarc]

I looked it up. and I can assure alfredo sauce as known in america has little to do with the original.

I know that American’s altered it for their own tastes and preparation sensibilities, but to say that fettuccine alfredo is not Italian is disingenuous.

 

[Sadras]

1) Doing it to everyone doesn't make it okay.

It also doesn't make it not ok.
If the stereotypes are fun and done well, they will stand and appeal on their own and the book will sell. It did.
If I want to run something which may be more authentic - I will gladly do the research.

2) There is no need to "heighten the difference" between east and west if you are doing it properly in the first place, especially not by an out-dated and silly stereotype.

5e DMG The Honor ability is also useful in any campaign that revolves around orders of Knights.
Does this not satisfy you?

3) Maybe stop being intractable and let me change my fantasy games to be more appealing to a wider audience? After all, it is my game too.

I have no issue with future material.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I know that American’s altered it for their own tastes and preparation sensibilities, but to say that fettuccine alfredo is not Italian is disingenuous.

One thing to keep in mind is American Italian Restaurants are different than italian american home-made. I've been to Italy and there are definitely differences between Italian American Cuisine and Italian Cuisine, but if you are basing your experience off restaurant food, that is way different than the stuff I grew up with my mom, uncles and aunts cooking. I've literally never had a red sauce at a restaurant that tasted remotely like home sauce (EDIT: I don't think I ever even had Alfredo in the household, though there were a lot of variations of simple sauces using either butter or olive oil and cheese).

 

[Danzauker]

Being Fantasy isn't an excuse to keep perpetuating the same stereotypes.

I'm glad if the book presented multiple different cultures from multiple different countries, that means there are fewer things to change to make it better.

Stereotypes aren't bad. That's something that you say but not everyone agree. Stereotypes work for a reason. They are ingrained in popular culture. Stereotypes might be boring, but are not automatically offensive. If they are not offensive, what's the problem?

Your comment, anyway, confirms that you are bashing a product that you didn't even read.

I'm very aware.

So?

Aren't they appropriation ad destruction of another culture's heritage? Are those points vaid only when they support your opinion but not mine?

Should I force you to eat things as they should be done? Or can we admit that by putting together something that were not intended to be together can sometimes create something new?

 

[Danzauker]

I know that American’s altered it for their own tastes and preparation sensibilities, but to say that fettuccine alfredo is not Italian is disingenuous.

Are you implying that you know more about my culture than me? Consider me your "Italian cultural consultant".

 

[MGibster]

That is an attempt to erase people's cultures instead of appreciate them for what they are.

That's bit histrionic I think. D&D itself is an amalgamation of several sources including Europe, the Middle East, and even influenced by little plastic toys from Asia and nobody in their right mind argues that Gygax or others were attempting to erase Greek, Arabian, or Scandinavian culture.

Of course we should create things inspired by Asian cultures. We should just do so in a way better than we have in the past. More sensitive to the harmful tropes and making sure we aren't conflating two things that aren't the same.

I have no disagreement with this as being sensitive to the feelings of others is generally a positive.

Can't you imagine, eventually, that it would start to aggravate you? That eventually you would tell them to at least admit that none of that is true, so people would stop associating these cultural things as being one and the same?

I'm sorry, are a lot of people stopping by Japan, China, or Malaysia and asking the locals about things they've seen in AD&D's Oriental Adventures book over the last 35 years?

 

[Sadras]

Why claim it is not something real to be offended about. How would you know. Are you their spokesperson. Why make it so it seems a group cannot voice their opinions. That is not good. Literal intolerance that is.

But is anyone a spokesperson for any group?
They can voice their opinions and they did in a series of long-winded videos, no one stopped them.
I do not have to agree with all or part of their justifications for their offense..

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

One thing to keep in mind is American Italian Restaurants are different than italian american home-made. I've been to Italy and there are definitely differences between Italian American Cuisine and Italian Cuisine, but if you are basing your experience off restaurant food, that is way different than the stuff I grew up with my mom, uncles and aunts cooking. I've literally never had a red sauce at a restaurant that tasted remotely like home sauce.

Moving this to the example of cultural appropriation and more closely to the subject matter ....

What would today's people think of the California Roll? If it came around today?

While the exact history of the California Roll is disputed, it is undisputed that it is a western invention, with a likely origination in Los Angeles, Vancouver, or San Diego. Both "fish-less sushi" using avocado (along with imitation crab and cucumber) and the idea of "inside out sushi" (to emphasize the rice and minimize the seaweed appearance) has long been lauded as a "gateway" for many people to learn to eat more advanced types of Sushi ("spicy tuna" is another western concoction with a similar purpose).

Of course, the California Roll was then "imported" back to Japan, and one of the people who claimed to have invented it was honored by the Japanese government.

A lot of what we take for granted today is the admixture of many sensibilities. Heck, I love Cowboy Bebop; is it wrong for Japanese anime to appropriate American (Black) Culture? What about Samurai Champloo?

Again, there is a fine line that is not always apparent between making sure that we do not use offensive tropes and language ("oriental," blackface and minstrelsy) and recognizing that culture is not monolithic, but grows and changes.

Actually, I was just thinking about Home Game on Netflix; one of the sports they features was Catch Fetiche, which was a Congolese appropriation of Western Wrestling mixed with more traditional Congolese themes. That was spectacular.

 

[Stormonu]

I have heard people make valid complaints about the lack of representation in artwork and wish for more settings that aren't so Eurocentric. Until now, I haven't heard anyone argue that we shouldn't create settings inspired by Asia, though there's certainly room for debate over how such projects are implemented as evidence by this thread. But we can't complain about a lack of diversity or a lack of Eurocentric settings and then turn around and complain when someone creates a setting that isn't faux Europe.

And besides, can you imagine the howls of outrage if we took Kung-fu, katanas, and ninjas and attributed them to a European style culture?

Look how much flak there is merely over the Monk - all the calls to remove it from the PHB because "it doesn't fit the Eurocentric view of D&D"